StuartReeves
Local rarity
Hadn't realised this was such an old chestnut. My defence is that I wasn't around when this was covered before on http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=8930&page=1&pp=25.
Stuart
Stuart
-
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"Northumberland Honey Buzzard" on video (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter John Cantelo
- Start date
Sandra (Taylor)
Well-known member
Gosh - reading these comments I feel I wasn't such a ninny wondering which was HB & which was CB at the watchpoint in Great .... (something) in Norfolk. If birders with your experience can't decide there's no hope for me!
Sandra
Sandra
David Bryant
Registered User
And to think people used to criticise OUR videos for being a little 'jerky'!
Sorry Nick: Common Buzzard without any doubt!
Sorry Nick: Common Buzzard without any doubt!
Cuckoo-shrike
Well-known member
We're ALL decided Sandra. Well all except for Nick who has shown a total complete and utter refusal to accept the overwhelming opinion of everyone who has seen his pictures.Sandra (Taylor) said:
Andy
Nick Rossiter
Well-known member
Aquila said:
We've had some technical input from Stuart (to which I've replied) but none from anyone else. Nice to get a technical debate going!! Cheers ... Nick
Edward woodwood
Member
nowt to debate
Cuckoo-shrike
Well-known member
What's the point? It was debated ad nauseum last time. You lost the debate.Nick Rossiter said:
Andy
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
Nick Rossiter said:
Contact SJR (Steve Roberts) he has copies of both the programme and the amateur footage; he may be able to get permission to post something - do you still have his contact details?
Andy.
John Cantelo
Well-known member
Thanks, Nick, for your apology. I didn't really feel the need for one, but it was gracious of you to give it. I, in turn, ought to apologise for posting this without having the manners to alert you to the fact that I intended to do so. So please accept my apology for my lack of courtesy. (I really should know better than to start posting things late at night, after a good meal and a generous amount of wine). Thanks too to Nick for describing me on his website, albeit in inverted comas, as an "Honey Buzzard expert". It's not a claim I'd make; I'm just a 'jobbing' birdwatcher who's been round the block a few times. Since I'm in an apologetic mood I ought to include Tom in my grovelling …… but come on, Tom, you didn't HAVE to look and the title made it pretty obvious what it was about. Furthermore, if, as I believe, Nick's good intentioned efforts are actually obscuring the status of a rare breeding species, then I would contend that this is a far more important issue than many postings to this forum.
Yes, the video footage isn't of the highest quality and nor does that much of it actually show the bird in question. However, it's better than nothing and Nick deserves credit for getting something and posting it on his website. A lesser man might pack up and slink off after the aggravation he's had from bolshie types like me. I still think that he's deeply mistaken, but I willingly concede that his concern and his enthusiasm for Honey Buzzard as second to none. Birds need champions like Nick, but I remain convinced that his identifications/observations are so flawed that his efforts are counter-productive.
And, finally, the video …. my personal view is that the footage shows a Common Buzzard. The images of the bird in 'flapping flight' are so brief and poor that they verge on the subliminal. Nonetheless, there doesn't seem to be the elastic 'bounce' that I'd associate with HB. Neither could I see the characteristic 'rudder action' of the tail in the video. Admittedly the footage is brief and this character is not always evident, but the moment as bird rose and turned out from behind the trees is just when this feature can frequently be observed. The wings and tail also appear to be consistent in terms of shape with Common Buzzard. The wings also seem to be held in a typical Common Buzzard fashion (i.e. raised rather than flat). OK, HBs can sometimes (briefly at that) show a modest 'V' especially in blustery conditions, but this bird looks to hold this too long. Little can be seen of the bird's plumage (and I know Nick differs from me in the practical utility of this feature), but what can be seen also looks more reminiscent of Common Buzzard than anything else.
In short, I can see nothing in this footage that points towards Honey Buzzard and everything that suggest Common Buzzard. I wish I was wrong. I'd much prefer HBs to be as common as Nick suggests. I'd gratefully accept public humiliation if the price was a thriving population of HBs in Nick's study area. I couldn't care less if Nick's vengeance (cf. the motto on his website) were a dish served hot, cold, luke warm or howsoever he pleases if there really were so many HBs t'north. But I can honestly see not a shred of evidence for this from Nick. Having browsed other aspects of his site I'd also like to add, at risk of sounding appallingly patronising, that Nick is clearly a gifted and intelligent bloke. However, this leaves me entirely at a loss to account for his obduracy in the face of such universal criticism from fellow birders with far more collective experience of the species than any one individual, John
Yes, the video footage isn't of the highest quality and nor does that much of it actually show the bird in question. However, it's better than nothing and Nick deserves credit for getting something and posting it on his website. A lesser man might pack up and slink off after the aggravation he's had from bolshie types like me. I still think that he's deeply mistaken, but I willingly concede that his concern and his enthusiasm for Honey Buzzard as second to none. Birds need champions like Nick, but I remain convinced that his identifications/observations are so flawed that his efforts are counter-productive.
And, finally, the video …. my personal view is that the footage shows a Common Buzzard. The images of the bird in 'flapping flight' are so brief and poor that they verge on the subliminal. Nonetheless, there doesn't seem to be the elastic 'bounce' that I'd associate with HB. Neither could I see the characteristic 'rudder action' of the tail in the video. Admittedly the footage is brief and this character is not always evident, but the moment as bird rose and turned out from behind the trees is just when this feature can frequently be observed. The wings and tail also appear to be consistent in terms of shape with Common Buzzard. The wings also seem to be held in a typical Common Buzzard fashion (i.e. raised rather than flat). OK, HBs can sometimes (briefly at that) show a modest 'V' especially in blustery conditions, but this bird looks to hold this too long. Little can be seen of the bird's plumage (and I know Nick differs from me in the practical utility of this feature), but what can be seen also looks more reminiscent of Common Buzzard than anything else.
In short, I can see nothing in this footage that points towards Honey Buzzard and everything that suggest Common Buzzard. I wish I was wrong. I'd much prefer HBs to be as common as Nick suggests. I'd gratefully accept public humiliation if the price was a thriving population of HBs in Nick's study area. I couldn't care less if Nick's vengeance (cf. the motto on his website) were a dish served hot, cold, luke warm or howsoever he pleases if there really were so many HBs t'north. But I can honestly see not a shred of evidence for this from Nick. Having browsed other aspects of his site I'd also like to add, at risk of sounding appallingly patronising, that Nick is clearly a gifted and intelligent bloke. However, this leaves me entirely at a loss to account for his obduracy in the face of such universal criticism from fellow birders with far more collective experience of the species than any one individual, John
Nick Rossiter
Well-known member
Thanks for your comments John. In my view this is a very young juvenile Honey Buzzard in that it is still in its natal area, perhaps only having fledged 2-3 weeks before. That's how I probably caught up with it! This means that structurally it is not that different from a Common Buzzard though in my view the head is small, the secondaries do bulge and the tail is pretty long almost as long as the wing width.
The bird does use its tail as a rudder on its second circuit in classical kite fashion and once when first over the trees. I don't really claim anything from the initial blurred shots.
I know I've been sceptical about plumage before, mainly because of the difficulties with stills. Video seems to offer more opportunity here. If you run the video through Windows Movie Maker, you can look at the frames one after the other. I reckon that about 10 frames do show decent views of the plumage when the bird is banking and strong light comes onto the underside. This shows all the problems of stills -- underside features in view for 1/3rd of a second (30 frames/second on film) in a 32 second clip, and that in two portions.
My view of the underside is extensive black on the tip coming well inside the fingers, very dark secondaries including the bases, dark solid carpal patch running into underwing coverts, dark body, pale midwing panel and strikingly pale base to hand. This is diagnostic for juvenile Honey Buzzard.
Cheers ... Nick
The bird does use its tail as a rudder on its second circuit in classical kite fashion and once when first over the trees. I don't really claim anything from the initial blurred shots.
I know I've been sceptical about plumage before, mainly because of the difficulties with stills. Video seems to offer more opportunity here. If you run the video through Windows Movie Maker, you can look at the frames one after the other. I reckon that about 10 frames do show decent views of the plumage when the bird is banking and strong light comes onto the underside. This shows all the problems of stills -- underside features in view for 1/3rd of a second (30 frames/second on film) in a 32 second clip, and that in two portions.
My view of the underside is extensive black on the tip coming well inside the fingers, very dark secondaries including the bases, dark solid carpal patch running into underwing coverts, dark body, pale midwing panel and strikingly pale base to hand. This is diagnostic for juvenile Honey Buzzard.
Cheers ... Nick
Julian Sykes Wildlife
Jules Sykes
Well done Nick
It is incredibly admirable the way you have continued to stick your head above the parapet and try to answer your critics. Your strength of conviction is immense and John Cantelo is right that certain birds need a person like you to champion their cause.
However if I am honest, I too (from the video clip) think this is a Common Buzzard, but you did see and scrutinise the bird in question (I didn't).
It is incredibly admirable the way you have continued to stick your head above the parapet and try to answer your critics. Your strength of conviction is immense and John Cantelo is right that certain birds need a person like you to champion their cause.
However if I am honest, I too (from the video clip) think this is a Common Buzzard, but you did see and scrutinise the bird in question (I didn't).
mountain man
Guest
John Cantelo said:
Morning Mr Cantelo,
No need to apologise you've done nothing wrong! It was the way your thread was manipulated by others in a bit of a nasty way that was winding me up. Your intention was to point out a mistake in the video footage, whereas other people decided to bring up old grievances and turn the thread into a bit of a personal attack. The Honey Buzzard bits were interesting, but the personal bits were "dull".
Tom.
Hi all,
I shall refrain from getting involved in the 'personal bits' referred to by Tom, but must admit that the buzzard sp in the video looks most like Common to me, but I must admit to being relatively inexperienced with the species, and also the footage isn't really of high enough quality to allow a firm ID to be made. It is certainly possible that the bird looked better in real life?
While not making comments about anyone involved here, I would certainly believe that many reports of Honey Buzzards in the UK (and some from here) refer to misidentified Common Buzzards: seperation of juvenile birds in particular is tougher than one may think having seen adult HB....
Harry
I shall refrain from getting involved in the 'personal bits' referred to by Tom, but must admit that the buzzard sp in the video looks most like Common to me, but I must admit to being relatively inexperienced with the species, and also the footage isn't really of high enough quality to allow a firm ID to be made. It is certainly possible that the bird looked better in real life?
While not making comments about anyone involved here, I would certainly believe that many reports of Honey Buzzards in the UK (and some from here) refer to misidentified Common Buzzards: seperation of juvenile birds in particular is tougher than one may think having seen adult HB....
Harry
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
Nick Rossiter said:
Nick,
I've started to get the ball rolling with respect to the video; latest info I have suggests there may be a lot of it!
Is there any particular time of year, plumage, state of moult, etc. you would like me to look for when I go through it to choose a couple of snippets? (Assuming I get permission, of course
).Regards,
Andy.
Nick Rossiter
Well-known member
That's great, Andy. Hope you get permission. I would like to see adults in May, floating, flapping and displaying; also adults up in the air later in the season in say July. Anything else though would obviously be very interesting including a newly-fledged juvenile in flight. Cheers ... Nick
stoned curlew
Member
I missed the Northumberland HB debate the first time around and have belatedly come across Nick Rossiter’s website (my first posting on BF). From reading the previous postings and examining his site I would agree with the critics who believe that many of Nick’s photographs, including the video clip show CB and not HB. The are three possibilities – either all Nick’s Northumberland HB’s are HB’s, or all are CB’s or thirdly some are HB’s and some are CB’s. I must admit I cannot identify any HB’s in Nick’s Northumberland photos or video clips but his sound recording of bill-clicking at the nest is strong evidence that he does at least have some HB’s in his study area. I’ve never heard this call personally, so cannot vouch that Nick’s recording accurately reflects the bill-clapping sound. Does anyone know if CB’s make this sound with their bills too? Nick recorded this call from a bird sitting on a nest in July, which would suggest that it was HB and not CB. Hexhamshire is the best potential area for HB in his Northumberland survey area and this is where he has made his sound recording. From the sound evidence he has presented I think he probably does have at least one pair of HB in Hexhamshire.
By the way, does anyone have an opinion on the Hobby photos shown on his website?
By the way, does anyone have an opinion on the Hobby photos shown on his website?
Edward woodwood
Member
stoned curlew said:
watcha Stone Curlew
u got a URL for those pages?
stoned curlew
Member
Hi Tim,
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/hb/northumberlandhb.htm
The Hobby photos are in the Britain/North Sea section under 'Honey Buzzards and Hobbies in Northumberland". The birds appear to be too short-winged for Hobby but it may just be the photographs. Can anyone tell me why they are not Merlins? Nick has claimed fledged juvenile Hobbies in Northumberland on the 20th July, which would put egg laying before the third week of May. If this is correct I think this would be the earliest breeding record for Britain. Unless someone out there knows different!
http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/hb/northumberlandhb.htm
The Hobby photos are in the Britain/North Sea section under 'Honey Buzzards and Hobbies in Northumberland". The birds appear to be too short-winged for Hobby but it may just be the photographs. Can anyone tell me why they are not Merlins? Nick has claimed fledged juvenile Hobbies in Northumberland on the 20th July, which would put egg laying before the third week of May. If this is correct I think this would be the earliest breeding record for Britain. Unless someone out there knows different!
Nick Rossiter
Well-known member
Welcome Stoned Curlew (or is it Peter Francis?)
It's a little misleading to quote my one fledging date for Hobby in July and ignore the fact that over 90% of Hobby broods in Northumberland fledge between mid-August and early September.
Even working back from 21st July - take off minimum 56 days for incubation and fledging -- you get a laying date of around 26th May. Certainly early but not out of the question with many species laying earlier than they did. This brood was very close to where I live so it was perhaps spotted earlier than usual.
Cheers ... Nick
It's a little misleading to quote my one fledging date for Hobby in July and ignore the fact that over 90% of Hobby broods in Northumberland fledge between mid-August and early September.
Even working back from 21st July - take off minimum 56 days for incubation and fledging -- you get a laying date of around 26th May. Certainly early but not out of the question with many species laying earlier than they did. This brood was very close to where I live so it was perhaps spotted earlier than usual.
Cheers ... Nick
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