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How often ? (1 Viewer)

The other thing to consider JohnZ is to ask if you could lend them a hand. Sounds like there are plenty of birds there, hence the desire to visit as often as you say. Whenever ringers are busy, there are opportunities to help in lots of ways, one important role being the 'recorder' of the data. You'd soon be up to speed and you'll be away and part of the ringing group. It might broaden the interest of your regular visits to the site and give you a greater insight into the whole activity.
 
Bough Beech is a bit of a strange site. There is a causeway which separates a lake from the reservoir. To watch birds from the causeway you really need a digiscope. As my interest is primarily photographing birds then lugging a camera, and lenses, and digiscope around is not really practical. My camera lens is not long enough to take piccies at a great distance and, in my opinion, and mine only, the results from digiscoping are not quite as good as those from a DSLR.
Unfortunately there is only one feeding station at Bough Beech. It is nearly as long as a park football pitch but half as wide, if not less. The ringers had nets up at both ends of this area.
In my ignorance I will have to assume that the ringers do their job on part time basis and like most people have full time jobs ? That would restrict them to weekends only ?
If I have made a fool of myself and they are in fact full time ringers, if there is such a thing, then I would definitely have mixed feelings about this situation. Practically nobody visits Bough Beech during the week. I know as I have been there on a weekday and have not seen a soul.
There is no doubt in my mind that what they are doing is both useful and worthwhile. I have never questioned that.
TonyS, There are usually four ringers. Three go out and empty the nets and bring the birds in then they all measure the birds and the recorder jots down the data. The job of recording the data is primarily done by two gentlemen. I have never seen anybody else let loose on the data book either at Bough Beech or Sevenoaks.
Last Sunday at Bough Beech there were five people ringing, recording etc. Room for another ? I think not.
 
Just to clarify a couple of points as these have been brought up. Bough Beech isn't a Constant Effort Site, but this is actually only a breeding season survey so isn't relevant to the winter period.

We do rely on regular ringing at sites during the winter though to collect data on body condition, which then has a direct impact on survival and subsequent breeding. For one such example, see:
http://www.bto.org/research/services/publications_abstracts/2005/macleod_etal.htm

I'll just confirm as well that a verty large majority of ringers will be volunteers, only able to ring at weekends. This can lead to unfortunate clashes with other reserve users, but seeing birds in the hand may well give you a whole new insight into their lives. I would suggest giving it a go, and do go and say hello and voice your concerns. I'm sure the ringers involved will be very open about what they're doing and be able to chat to you about their work.

If you do have any further queries, then get back to me here at the BTO ([email protected])

Mark Grantham
BTO RInging Unit
 
Mark Grantham said:
Just to clarify a couple of points as these have been brought up. Bough Beech isn't a Constant Effort Site, but this is actually only a breeding season survey so isn't relevant to the winter period.

We do rely on regular ringing at sites during the winter though to collect data on body condition, which then has a direct impact on survival and subsequent breeding. For one such example, see:
http://www.bto.org/research/services/publications_abstracts/2005/macleod_etal.htm

I'll just confirm as well that a verty large majority of ringers will be volunteers, only able to ring at weekends. This can lead to unfortunate clashes with other reserve users, but seeing birds in the hand may well give you a whole new insight into their lives. I would suggest giving it a go, and do go and say hello and voice your concerns. I'm sure the ringers involved will be very open about what they're doing and be able to chat to you about their work.

If you do have any further queries, then get back to me here at the BTO ([email protected])

Mark Grantham
BTO RInging Unit
Click to expand...


Mark is right here and explains well. last summer on an early morning ringing session two birdwatchers came to see what i caught & at the time was proccessing a Kingfisher, they were amazed at how different the bird looked in the hand and was thrilled to have such an experience that morning. Even the house sparrow which a lot of birdwatchers wont bother to lift their bins for would be amazed at the colour & feathering.
Each to his own but dont spoil it for oneanother, there is MUCH more to ringing than just putting a ring on a bird and the avrage twitcher hasnt a clue how much training goes into it.
 
wizard said:
Even the house sparrow which a lot of birdwatchers wont bother to lift their bins for would be amazed at the colour & feathering.
Click to expand...
That's why I bought a camera. I can appreciate and enjoy the subtle beauty of even common birds without having to lay my hands on them to do it.

Each to his own but dont spoil it for one another
Click to expand...
And yet apparently pointless, profligate ringing activity does just that for many people, or threads like this wouldn't be here.

there is MUCH more to ringing than just putting a ring on a bird and the average twitcher hasnt a clue how much training goes into it.
Click to expand...
It's not the ringers' skills, it's their motivation that's sometimes in doubt.
 
Keith Reeder said:
That's why I bought a camera. I can appreciate and enjoy the subtle beauty of even common birds without having to lay my hands on them to do it.

And yet apparently pointless, profligate ringing activity does just that for many people, or threads like this wouldn't be here.

It's not the ringers' skills, it's their motivation that's sometimes in doubt.
Click to expand...

Hello Keith,
You seem to have a very negative view on ringers and the ringing scheme and I do wonder where this has come from? I am glad you are able to enjoy the the beauty of birds on a screen or on paper. Scientists and birders who become ringers do this research to study birds as defined by the BTO, not just to get their hands on a bird.

I am very surprised that you say that ringing is pointless, under any circumstances, as it has provided us with much needed information to conserve species, study migration routes, population dynamics, the list is endless. I would say that ringing is far from being useless even in a back garden.

What is wrong with ringer's motivation? They are doing this research because they must obviously enjoy birds and are doing this in their own time with their own money and PAY TO DO IT! Without all the volunteer ringers (across the globe I will add), our knowledge of birds would be far smaller and I expect many species would have perished without it.

Without trying to get personal, I do hope that no matter how much time you spend in the field observing or photographing, that you submit your records and contribute towards the overall knowledge of British Birds.

Adrian
 
Ade George said:
Hello Keith,
You seem to have a very negative view on ringers and the ringing scheme and I do wonder where this has come from? I am glad you are able to enjoy the the beauty of birds on a screen or on paper. ...
Click to expand...
Think all that John and Keith have been questioning on this thread is the FREQUENCY of which birds in one location are trapped and perhaps reflecting personal misgivings relating to individual views about nature and how we respond in different ways. No one here has disputed the value of knowledge which contributes towards conservation etc etc

However, ringing (as well as being educative in terms of providing information) is also just a hobby for many people and done simply for the enjoyment. BUT the idea of, or indeed witnessing, the trapping and netting of birds doesn't appeal to everyone who may be interested in the welfare/knowledge of birds, same way 'twitching' doesn't appeal to everyone, or just patch birding etc etc: It's fair enough at least to ask whether (and training 'schools' are about making money, they're a business!) or not, there is a frequency beyond which birds in any given location who repeatedly risk being caught up in a net when they are drawn to an area through hunger, is morally right, let alone essential to further knowledge. Notwithstanding any moral or subjectively emotional responses to witnessing birds trapped, it's apples and oranges to imply that just because someone ''enjoys birds on a screen or on paper'', or more relevant on this thread, photographing them in natural environments, they will get just as much enjoyment from seeing a bird held in a human hand - they are very different experiences as is photography, birdwatching, painting birds, holding them, twitching them, ringing them etc etc.
 
Last edited:
deborah4 said:
Think all that John and Keith have been questioning on this thread is the FREQUENCY of which birds in one location are trapped and perhaps reflecting personal misgivings relating to individual views about nature and how we respond in different ways. No one here has disputed the value of knowledge which contributes towards conservation etc etc

However, ringing (as well as being educative in terms of providing information) is also just a hobby for many people and done simply for the enjoyment. BUT the idea of, or indeed witnessing, the trapping and netting of birds doesn't appeal to everyone who may be interested in the welfare/knowledge of birds, same way 'twitching' doesn't appeal to everyone, or just patch birding etc etc: It's fair enough at least to ask whether (and training 'schools' are about making money, they're a business!) or not, there is a frequency beyond which birds in any given location who repeatedly risk being caught up in a net when they are drawn to an area through hunger, is morally right, let alone essential to further knowledge. Notwithstanding any moral or subjectively emotional responses to witnessing birds trapped, it's apples and oranges to imply that just because someone ''enjoys birds on a screen or on paper'', or more relevant on this thread, photographing them in natural environments, they will get just as much enjoyment from seeing a bird held in a human hand - they are very different experiences as is photography, birdwatching, painting birds, holding them, twitching them, ringing them etc etc.
Click to expand...

Hi deborah,
As I am aware, there are no training schools or businesses out to make to money on training ringers. Any money left over from a course which usually ends up being a matter of a few pounds goes back into the observatory or ringing group to support running costs. I would have to agree that there is a limit to how many times a bird could be caught but lets not forget that birds are very very intelligent and if a site is ringed too much then birds soon realise where the nets are and fly above, below or around them. In someones eyes, drawing birds with artificial food may be imoral, although I do wonder how many birds survive the winter due to these feeding stations.
 
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read my original post, number 1. I asked a question and it would appear to have been answered.
Whether I like it or not it seems that eight, or nine, visits in a short period of time, three months, is not unusual. As I am primarily interested in photographing birds I will have to accept that and steer clear of Bough Beech.
At the risk of repetition I do understand the importance of ringing birds but the original question was probably borne out of frustration. It seemed that every other week, at Bough Beech, the ringers were there. This was obviously not the case but their visits were still very frequent.
I also visit Sevenoaks, KWT, and whilst there I saw the same team of ringers. They "Netted" a Kingfisher and I was more than happy to see this beautiful bird at close quarters. Hypocrite ? Not in my mind.
As Mark has very kindly left me an address to contact him I will probably do so and, hopefully, he may be able to shed some light on the "Bough Beech Syndrome".
Please understand that, as Deborah has already said, it is the frequency of the visits rather than the purpose. I hope that this will now put an end to this thread.
 
Keith Reeder said:
It's not the ringers' skills, it's their motivation that's sometimes in doubt.
Click to expand...


///SIGH!// :storm:

I suppose that's the difference between Bird watchers and Ornothologists. First group is content with watching, or looking at something pretty, the second has an urge to find out why it's pretty, if it's going to stay that way and if there is a chance of seeing it again.

Why do I get the idea that there are a lot of birdwatchers on the brink of trainspotting???
 
ESTEBANNIC said:
///SIGH!// :storm:

I suppose that's the difference between Bird watchers and Ornothologists. First group is content with watching, or looking at something pretty, the second has an urge to find out why it's pretty, if it's going to stay that way and if there is a chance of seeing it again.

Why do I get the idea that there are a lot of birdwatchers on the brink of trainspotting???
Click to expand...

Presumptions Presumptions! You're calling a lot of birdwatchers 'trainspotters' on the strength that some of them question the amount of ringing that takes place in the UK. Ringing is not the only way to source information about migration, feeding, nesting habits, numbers etc. As has been said, many times on previous threads, as well as this one, no one is questioning the merit of ringing for conservation/monitoring purposes, and most of us readily support ringing where it leads to further information and is actually used as a valuable resource. With the plethora of ringing that does take place, it is not unreasonable to raise questions about how much information is actually being managed and used in such a way that justifies the extensive way ringing is just (apparently) another self-satisfying hobby to some people and skills gained be put to use for their own purposes of netting 'rarities' and ticking them. Thus, the FREQUENCY of ringing should be managed, centrally, holistically and systematically and in such a way, so that conservation justifications do actually stand uncriticised, and for example, the netting of rare migrants (information gained valuable????), or garden birds etc be looked at. that's just my point of view.

There's no point in starting a debate on this as said, it's been covered before and much more extensively in other threads.
 
deborah4 said:
Presumptions Presumptions! You're calling a lot of birdwatchers 'trainspotters' on the strength that some of them question the amount of ringing that takes place in the UK. Ringing is not the only way to source information about migration, feeding, nesting habits, numbers etc. As has been said, many times on previous threads, as well as this one, no one is questioning the merit of ringing for conservation/monitoring purposes, and most of us readily support ringing where it leads to further information and is actually used as a valuable resource. With the plethora of ringing that does take place, it is not unreasonable to raise questions about how much information is actually being managed and used in such a way that justifies the extensive way ringing is just (apparently) another self-satisfying hobby to some people and skills gained be put to use for their own purposes of netting 'rarities' and ticking them. Thus, the FREQUENCY of ringing should be managed, centrally, holistically and systematically and in such a way, so that conservation justifications do actually stand uncriticised, and for example, the netting of rare migrants (information gained valuable????), or garden birds etc be looked at. that's just my point of view.

There's no point in starting a debate on this as said, it's been covered before and much more extensively in other threads.
Click to expand...


I think the only person to answer your questions and the points you raise would be Mark Grantham (BTO). As I recall though, Ring neck duck ringed in the UK went to Greenland, maybe on its way home. The Subalpine Warbler trapped at Portland went to Holy Island or the Farnes. Ringing of so called rarities can be valuable in itself. We are venturing away again from the original thread.
 
Ade George said:
I think the only person to answer your questions and the points you raise would be Mark Grantham (BTO).
Click to expand...

not me that's asking the questions, just defending the right for others to ask without being subjected to personal criticism or sweeping presumptions about what makes certain birders tick
 
Mark Grantham said:
BTW - CES sessions are run every 10 ten days through the season.

Mark Grantham
BTO Ringing Unit
Click to expand...

I think that this answers the initial question.

And I know of no bird observatories or training 'schools' that charge to make a profit on teaching people how to ring, merely ask for a contribution to cover costs.

At AuBO, we only charge $10 CAD per night for accomodation and that is for any visitors/volunteers of under four weeks. We readily accept trainees as volunteers, as it is a good basis for them to increase their numbers and their species knowledge.

We also enjoy a very co-operative relationship with a number of the local birders, who are very supportive of our work and willing to help out with census counts etc.

At the end of the day, we all have the same ultimate aim, and we should look to understand each other, appreciate benefits of different methods of research and move forward as the birding community.

But maybe I am an idealist.

Peter Fearon
(Education Specialist and Chief Bandit!)
 
Estebannic, Without wishing to offend I find your last post patronising to say the least. I should also add that it is normally spelt ornithologists. The fact that I derive any sort of pleasure out of taking pictures of birds is obviously an alien concept to you. Trainspotting ? It is much worse than that. I travel far and wide taking piccies of birds and not you nor anybody else is going to stop me. Oh, hang on a minute, the ringers probably might.
Ade, From my initial question this now appears to have turned into a personal attack on various posters. For the umpteenth time I have nothing whatsoever against ringing birds. I originally asked about the frequency of the ringing. Mark Grantham has already stated, in this thread, that Bough Beech is not a CES so I just wondered, in my naivete, why the ringers are at Bough Beech so often. Very simple. Nothing sinister. I shall endeavour to get in touch with Mark but the address he left on this thread is invalid. I suspect he left the .uk off.
I also post pictures on another website and one of the major contributors on this forum constantly remarks "Shame about the ring/collar". It is not a shame to me as it is the piccie of the bird that I am interested in not whether it is ringed or not !
 
Ausable Bird Observatory said:
At the end of the day, we all have the same ultimate aim, and we should look to understand each other, appreciate benefits of different methods of research and move forward as the birding community.
Click to expand...
Hear, hear... I'll B :) to that.
 
Don't worry about it John. At the end of the day, perspectives depend on whatever aspect of birding appeals to us individually. Peter's last post, was well balanced and concillitory (sorry can't spell!). We all, if we are honest, want to put the welfare of wild birds foremost over any self-fulfilment of our respective interests. I just suspect what we consider to be in the best interests of birds may conflict with others occasionally, that's all.
 
JohnZ said:
I shall endeavour to get in touch with Mark but the address he left on this thread is invalid. I suspect he left the .uk off.
Click to expand...
John

If you're struggling to get in touch with Mark, just Google his name in conjunction with BTO: you'll get full details, and I'm sure he'll be happy to help. The email address quoted there, and in his post here, appears to be fine without a .uk suffix (though obviously his account may have a problem). It matches the BTO's domain name and every other email address quoted on their site.

Hope this helps
 
JohnZ said:
I originally asked about the frequency of the ringing. Mark Grantham has already stated, in this thread, that Bough Beech is not a CES so I just wondered, in my naivete, why the ringers are at Bough Beech so often.
Click to expand...

The site will be 'ringed' so often, as Mark went on to say, to collect information on the birds condition through the winter, as CES is during the breeding time.

As a scientific method, ringing should be a regular activity, to collect accurate data. So if they are turning up bi-monthly, this isn't particularly strange.

There is also the possibilty that there is a more focussed study in place, maybe paying specific attention to one species in particular. I am aware that a lot of work has been done on Willow Tits recently. (Alex Lewis gave a fantastic presentation on this at the BTO conference in Deceber).

I would suggest that you engage the ringers and see what's going on. I am sure you'll find them co-operative and understanding.

Peter Fearon
 
My mistake with Marks mail address. Once again I failed to add the fullstop between his Christian and Surname.
Peter, You are the voice of reason. Thank you.
 
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