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A question for ICZN/taxonomy gurus (1 Viewer)

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
In the mammal forum, there is recent discussion on the proposed splits of Killer Whale.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=169418

Now in 1982 specimens of the Antarctic form were collected and described by Russian researchers, as Orcinus glacialis.

Now, the holotype material, from what I heard, was lost, largely as a result of flooding of the collection (ouch).

So my question is, can Orcinus glacialis still be used as a valid name, or does a new holotype have to be defined for the for the name in question before it can be properly used?.
 
So my question is, can Orcinus glacialis still be used as a valid name, or does a new holotype have to be defined for the for the name in question before it can be properly used?.
There are certainly hundreds of names in mammals as well as in birds, for which no type material exists. Sometimes no types were preserved, or they were discarded due to negligence, or destroyed in fire, flood or war, or by dermestid beetles. But all these names are usually still valid, if from the original description there's no doubt about their identity.
In exceptional circumstances, a so called neotype may be designated.

Rainer
 
In the mammal forum, there is recent discussion on the proposed splits of Killer Whale.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=169418

Now in 1982 specimens of the Antarctic form were collected and described by Russian researchers, as Orcinus glacialis.

Now, the holotype material, from what I heard, was lost, largely as a result of flooding of the collection (ouch).

So my question is, can Orcinus glacialis still be used as a valid name, or does a new holotype have to be defined for the for the name in question before it can be properly used?.


It's impossible to designate a "new holotype". A holotype is, by its very nature, a wholly unique specimen. As Rainer stated, the holotypes of many taxa are either known to be definitely lost or their whereabouts are presently unknown. Obviously, the names associated with those specimens remain valid, although a neotype (Art. 75) may be needed under exceptional circumstances to define the taxon objectively, but not as a matter of course (Art. 75.2).

Guy Kirwan
 
In paleontology, if an original specimen is lost, a neotype (I couldn't remember the term for technical term for a "new" holotype when I typed this) is often referred. My take on things is that Paleontologists may have a stricter interpretation than other fields, probably because of limited availability of fossil material.
 
Doesn't it depend on what paratypes are available? I just wonder in the Killer whale case, if anyone else even has any material at all. (Based on soviet 80's). Without paratypes, you have nothing to even elevate to a neotype.

More an academic question I guess...they did distribute their material right?

Since without any material at all you may as well be referring to the Loch Ness Monster...yeah definitely got material...err just can't show you now....it got lost...

(BTW...you whale guys must need big jars to shove them in...)

Scott.
 
Doesn't it depend on what paratypes are available? I just wonder in the Killer whale case, if anyone else even has any material at all. (Based on soviet 80's). Without paratypes, you have nothing to even elevate to a neotype.


You DON'T specifically need paratypes! All you need is another specimen (any) which is demonstrably of the relevant taxon. Perhaps that's what you meant, but then it's a good idea to use correct terminology.
 
In the mammal forum, there is recent discussion on the proposed splits of Killer Whale.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=169418

Now in 1982 specimens of the Antarctic form were collected and described by Russian researchers, as Orcinus glacialis.

Now, the holotype material, from what I heard, was lost, largely as a result of flooding of the collection (ouch).

So my question is, can Orcinus glacialis still be used as a valid name, or does a new holotype have to be defined for the for the name in question before it can be properly used?.

Mysticete, for the validity of the name, you might want to look at http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/05/new_species_modern-day_rhino.php, particularly the paragraph immediately below the headline "Brief distraction from Killer whales"
 
Orcinus glacialis had type material associated with it, it just appears to be no longer extant. Orcinus nanus, the earlier described form, is based solely on descriptions of animals at sea

Their are fairly extensive collections of marine mammal material in Tierra del Fuego, which likely includes material referable to Orcinus glacialis. The difficulty might be making sure you are allocating the name to the right specimens
 
You DON'T specifically need paratypes! All you need is another specimen (any) which is demonstrably of the relevant taxon. Perhaps that's what you meant, but then it's a good idea to use correct terminology.

Since paratype is defined as any specimen of the type series other than the Holotype, I am curious to see where the imagined terminology error occurs.
Then you continue with:

"All you need is another specimen (any) which is demonstrably of the relevant taxon."

How would you propose to do that?

From ICZN:

72.4.5. When an author designates a holotype [Art. 73.1], then the other specimens of the type series are paratypes. The latter do not become syntypes and cannot be used for lectotype selection [Art. 74] if the holotype is lost or destroyed; however, they are eligible for neotype selection (see Recommendation 75A).

I think your original argument was based on:

72.4.1.1. For a nominal species or subspecies established before 2000, any evidence, published or unpublished, may be taken into account to determine what specimens constitute the type series.

Which again comes back to the same problem, and to make it clear I know hardly anything about whales or anything similar, but I do remember something about the arguments with splitting in the toothed whales being very contentious. Making it worse with my assumptions on Soviet era access to materials (why I asked) - and just the difficulties of scientific communication at the time.

So the question comes right back to what the available evidence is and only the experts in the field would be qualified to debate that aspect.

I am also curious what you mean by (any) other specimen? Afterall one must get the terminology correct...

72.4.6. If an author when establishing a nominal species-group taxon nominates either "syntypes" (by that term, or by use of one of the terms "cotypes" or "types" alone), or "holotype and paratypes" used together (or by use of the term "type" together with "allotype" or "cotypes"), and also lists other specimens, the separate mention of the latter expressly excludes them from the type series.

By which I assume your meaning ... Lectotype?

So briefly my take on the situation, where I admit I may be completely wrong.

The Russians create a type series on some killer whale they think is a new species. That is comprised of a Holotype and Paratypes. Other type series may have been created and distributed at the time - Syntypes. From the Syntypes Lectotypes could be designated. In the case I mentioned where all Paratypes are lost - and to be specific Holotypes and Lectotypes. Then where possible a new neotype can be created, see section 75.

Quickly though I would draw your attention to:

Recommendation 75A. Choice of neotypes. Authors are advised to choose neotypes from any surviving paratypes or paralectotypes unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary, such as data inadequate to meet taxonomic requirements, the poor condition of the specimens, or probable mixture of taxa. All things being equal, topotypic specimens (see Glossary) from the type series should be given preference.

Anyway I am not a lawyer and have better things to do than argue ICZN rules and freshman zoology terminology.

Scott.
 
Scott,
to make it clear from the beginning, Guy is absolutely correct in that there need to be NO paratypes to be able to designate a neotype!

So briefly my take on the situation, where I admit I may be completely wrong.

The Russians create a type series on some killer whale they think is a new species. That is comprised of a Holotype and Paratypes. Other type series may have been created and distributed at the time - Syntypes.
???
1. There is always only one type series for a given species!
2. The type series consists of either a (unique) holotype, OR a holotype and paratypes, OR syntypes. NOT holotype AND syntypes.

From the Syntypes Lectotypes could be designated.
If there are syntypes at all! If a holotype was designated, no syntypes existed from the very beginning, and no lectotype can ever be selected.

Then where possible a new neotype can be created, see section 75.
Have you really read it?

Recommendation 75A. Choice of neotypes.
This is only a recommendation, not a rule!

freshman zoology terminology.
Never try spitting against the wind!

Rainer
 
To be clear, I never said you absolutely must have paratypes. I don't recall there being a human type series... In the case of splitting which may or may not be ambiguous though having access to actual material I would imagine is crucial. And of course that depends on the detail of the actual original description. Otherwise it would simple be in the category of - there is a new type of killer whale in Antarctica - take my word for it.

That is why I pointed out the often contentiousness of splitting, and implicitly the need for good material. If someone goes down trying to find the originally described species, then how? ...The dorsal fin is on average 5cm shorter etc??

Ok so your saying that if you thought a pod of whales in this case was "somehow" different - then you would not take samples from as wide a selection of different local pods as possible? In which case you would have syntypes until you know exactly what they are. Agreed though that my wording is ambiguous as I was stretching syntypes for lack of a better word and thinking in terms of "syn", and as I point out to begin with probably wrong.

But in full (just to save more hystrionics hopefully), in the field you would take a number of presumably tissue samples, these may or may not be new type series, which ideally then you would distribute (in a perfect world). If it is shown later that you have a new species or more then you have a new type series as you rightly point out you can create new x-types from.

Happy now?

And amazingly nobody has been able to answer the original question. Which to be explicit...In the case of an assumed ambiguous splitting in this case, then how can you do it with no syntypes, paratypes, x-types or whatever makes you guys happy?

Which I assume is of serious relevance to Mysticete and the intention of his original post. I assume in most cases it is fairly easy to identify a Human or Rock Pigeon, but probably not different Killer Whales....big, black and white, teeth...

I hope the wording ie. terminology, is finally clear in this case.

And yes I have read it - and understood it. And in English I believe the correct phrase is - dont -p*ss into the wind. On the "only a recommendation" comment...err yeah...ok...you got me there...along with 40% of the ICZN code.

A more appropriate phrase might be....can't see the forest for the trees

Scott.
 
how can you do it with no syntypes, paratypes, x-types or whatever makes you guys happy?
By designating one! That is the simple answer, given already. That is exactly, what neotypes are for!
Take a (any) specimen from as near as the original locality as possible, that fits the description as good as possible, state that it is necessary to have such a specimen to confirm the distinctness of the taxon, and call it neotype!

Rainer
 
The Bean Goose history

Within this discussion (Holotype if any types), the next issue falls well enough in it’s boundaries.

Within the Bean goose complex some very interesting facts can be noted down. The whole history and the usage of some names are disputable, as types are missed and descriptions can’t exclude the various taxa. The main problem arises in the first ten descriptions from Bean Goose that they are all from wintering birds, and in those areas nowadays various now recognised taxa can be found, so with no certainty the right taxa can be identified from wintering birds.

The first description of Bean Goose pops up in Latham’s synopsis (1787), this or these birds where named fabalis. However, no type can be traced nor a description of this bird, within the synopsis. This bird clearly a wintering bird, could be either be fabalis or rossicus, as no conclusive features are noted down. Latham took his description from a bird (who was composed out of several birds) from Pennant (1770 & 1776).

Then a Bean Goose pops-up within Gmelin (1789) known as segetum. Again a wintering bird from England and no skins remains as a conclusive description of this particular bird. So again subspecific identification is impossible what Gmelin really described.

Next was Brehm (1822) who described from Gotha, Germany again a wintering bird now described as rufescens. This bird is also no longer with us as quests in AMNH, Bonn and NHM gave no match, maybe Dresden? Again a wintering bird that could be either the now recognised fabalis or rossicus.

The fourth Bean Goose description was again from Brehm (1830) this time from the coasts at Pommern, Germany from platyuros. Skin or skins are not retained nor a description.

The fifth description was again a Brehm (1830) description this time the bird was named arversis, collected in Germany. Again no skin is retained as a conclusive description, and again this bird is a wintering bird.

The sixth description from Selys Longchamps (1855) from a wintering bird, could be present at a Belgian museum. This bird was named leukonyx. Again the problem is that this bird is a wintering example.

Hugh Strickland was responsible from the seventh description from a English bird a he named this bird paludosus. Possibly this bird is at Cambridge, but again a winter bird…

Parker named in 1863 Bean Goose palustris collected in England. The skin from this wintering bird, is unknown to me.

Robert Swinhoe (1871) described the ninth Bean Goose from Amoy, China and named the bird serrirostris. Type is unknown to me, and again a wintering bird.

Sewertszow (1873) described from Turkestan middendorfii and again this was a wintering bird. Type might be a Moscow.

Suskin (1895) described the eleventh Bean Goose from Eastern Russia (Ufa) and named it neglectus. This bird might be present in a Russian Colelction, and might represent the first bird from a supposed breeding area.

Eugene Oates described in 1899 mentalis from Yokohama, Japan. Type at BMNH but again a wintering bird.

Buturlin describes a breeding population from Psovaia i Ruzheinaia Qkhota in 1901 and named them carneirostris. This southern Ural population is a breeding population.

Rickett describes from 1901 Fokien, China wintering oatesi.

Buturlin describes in 1901 carneirostris from Nova Zembla.

Alpheraky 1905 describes from the Taimyr sibiricus. Again a breeding bird.

Buturlin describes in 1908 from Pascha Ochota anadyrensis. Again a breeding bird.

Reprehensive are to my humble option only the breeding birds within the Bean Goose complex, this means renaming the various taxa, and newly establish the boundaries of their distribution. Either Suskin (1895) or Buturlin (1901) gain then priority.

You can't name fabalis, fabalis anymore as the now recognised fabalis and the now recognised rossicus both occured in Britain at that time. So it is about time to correct this mistake.

What are you’re thoughts….
 
This is certainly a dumb question (I am decidedly not an ICZN guru!), but if a "type" can be based entirely on a reasonable description, could a good photograph (with proper description) be used as a "type specimen?"
 
This is certainly a dumb question (I am decidedly not an ICZN guru!), but if a "type" can be based entirely on a reasonable description, could a good photograph (with proper description) be used as a "type specimen?"

Various paintings do, so why not a photograph.
 
Various paintings do, so why not a photograph.

Hi,

Absolutely possible to use a photograph as a voucher in naming species, but this is still much debated in the scientific community. In the case of birds, you can see the following papers are example of such debate:

Peterson A.T., Brumfield R.T., Moyle R.G., Nyari A., Remsen J.V., Robbins Jr. M.B. 2007. The need for proper vouchering in phylogenetic studies of birds. Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 45:1042–1044.
Olsson U., Sundberg P., Alström P., Gelang M., Ericson P.G.P. 2008. What is proper vouchering in phylogenetic studies of birds?—A reply to Peterson et al. (2007). Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 48 383–385.

p.s. I downloaded free both articles some time ago, but now apparently the full PDF are not freely available.
 
Hi,

Absolutely possible to use a photograph as a voucher in naming species, but this is still much debated in the scientific community. In the case of birds, you can see the following papers are example of such debate:

Peterson A.T., Brumfield R.T., Moyle R.G., Nyari A., Remsen J.V., Robbins Jr. M.B. 2007. The need for proper vouchering in phylogenetic studies of birds. Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 45:1042–1044.
Olsson U., Sundberg P., Alström P., Gelang M., Ericson P.G.P. 2008. What is proper vouchering in phylogenetic studies of birds?—A reply to Peterson et al. (2007). Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 48 383–385.

p.s. I downloaded free both articles some time ago, but now apparently the full PDF are not freely available.

Both of these letters are still available online, at:

http://www.nrm.se/en/menu/researchandcollections/departments/vertebratezoology/downloadreprints/directory/ornithologyreprints.2804.html

and:

http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/RemsenPubsPDFs.html

Mike Earp
 
I have another question. Which name is correct: Pteroclidae, Pteroclididae or both?
W. J. Bock, 1994. History and nomenclature of Avian family-group names:
page 105 - Correct spelling of family-group names, considering the proper formation of the stem of these name as genitive singular form of the generic name, will be used as far as possible, but with several major exceptions. First, names which are well-established will not be changed simply to conform with the correct formation of the genitive singular stem from the generic name. Hence although Coraciadidae (based on Coracias) and Pterocleidae (based on Pterocles) may well be correct, I have used Coraciidae and Pteroclidae because these names have the most widespread use. In addition, if there is a diversity in use, the simplest form is used, e.g., Chionidae rather than Chionididae.
and page 182 - Pteroclidae-Pteroclidae Bonaparte, 1831 and Syrrhaptidae Bonaparte, 1831 were proposed in the same paper. Pteroclidae has always been used for this family-level taxon and hence has precedence under the provision of first reviser. Pterocleidae and the Pteroclididae have been used by some authors depending on the judgment of how the stem should be formed from the name Pterocles (see Brooke, 1993: 333 who argued that the correct formation of the generic stem from Pterocles is "Pterocle-"). The correct formation of the family-group name based on generic names from some Greek nouns can be difficult, and I do not argue which stem is correct. At its recent meetings, the ICZN has argued in favor of the simplest spelling of family-group names and against changes in these names simply because of grammatical correction in the form of the generic stem. Most ornithologists have used the spelling Pteroclidae, which will be followed herein.
J. H. Boyd http://jboyd.net/Taxo/List3.html#pterocliformes:
There seems to be some controversy about how to spell the family name. Both Pteroclidae (Clements, HBW, Sibley-Monroe) and Pteroclididae (AOU, BLI, Howard-Moore, IOC) are in use, and Pterocleidae has also been used. The name indicates it is known for its wing, i.e., “-cles” takes the same meaning as in names such as Heracles. By analogy with Heraclidae/Heracleidae, it would then appear that either Pteroclidae or Pterocleidae would be correct. The first is the form used by Bonaparte when he established the family-group name in 1831 (as the subfamily Pteroclinae), and is used here.
 
I have another question. Which name is correct: Pteroclidae, Pteroclididae or both?
W. J. Bock, 1994. History and nomenclature of Avian family-group names:
page 105 - Correct spelling of family-group names, considering the proper formation of the stem of these name as genitive singular form of the generic name, will be used as far as possible, but with several major exceptions. First, names which are well-established will not be changed simply to conform with the correct formation of the genitive singular stem from the generic name. Hence although Coraciadidae (based on Coracias) and Pterocleidae (based on Pterocles) may well be correct, I have used Coraciidae and Pteroclidae because these names have the most widespread use. In addition, if there is a diversity in use, the simplest form is used, e.g., Chionidae rather than Chionididae.
and page 182 - Pteroclidae-Pteroclidae Bonaparte, 1831 and Syrrhaptidae Bonaparte, 1831 were proposed in the same paper. Pteroclidae has always been used for this family-level taxon and hence has precedence under the provision of first reviser. Pterocleidae and the Pteroclididae have been used by some authors depending on the judgment of how the stem should be formed from the name Pterocles (see Brooke, 1993: 333 who argued that the correct formation of the generic stem from Pterocles is "Pterocle-"). The correct formation of the family-group name based on generic names from some Greek nouns can be difficult, and I do not argue which stem is correct. At its recent meetings, the ICZN has argued in favor of the simplest spelling of family-group names and against changes in these names simply because of grammatical correction in the form of the generic stem. Most ornithologists have used the spelling Pteroclidae, which will be followed herein.
J. H. Boyd http://jboyd.net/Taxo/List3.html#pterocliformes:
There seems to be some controversy about how to spell the family name. Both Pteroclidae (Clements, HBW, Sibley-Monroe) and Pteroclididae (AOU, BLI, Howard-Moore, IOC) are in use, and Pterocleidae has also been used. The name indicates it is known for its wing, i.e., “-cles” takes the same meaning as in names such as Heracles. By analogy with Heraclidae/Heracleidae, it would then appear that either Pteroclidae or Pterocleidae would be correct. The first is the form used by Bonaparte when he established the family-group name in 1831 (as the subfamily Pteroclinae), and is used here.



I don't recall the answer to this question, but when considering names reviewed by Bock's work it is also extremely worthwhile to read: Olson, S.L. 1996. Review of: W. J. Bock. History and nomenclature of avian family-group names. Auk 112(2): 539-546. Unfortunately, I don't have a pdf directly to hand and it's not on Storrs' web page , but you can download it from SORA I guess.
 
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