Are Cormorants really a menace? (1 Viewer)

Are Cormorants really a problem to commercial fishermen and hobby anglers?

The alleged mass depletion of commercial and angling clubs' fish stocks in Europe and North America, principally on inland waters, has led to war being declared on the cormorant .

Are the fishermen's fears and claims justified? If so what can be done about it? the following article (translated from the German) presents facts, fiction and suggests solutions.

See: Proact Information


David

Sorry David but there is a lot of mis-information in your report, whether intentional or just through ignorance I have no way of knowing.

1) There is nothing "alleged" about the mass depletion of some fisheries, it happens for real.

2) Waters don't have to be overstocked to attract cormorants, they are quite capable of depleting understocked waters as well.

3)Cormorants regularly take fish much larger than your suggested 10 - 20 cm. I've personally seen them with fish much larger than that.

4) Species such as Roach Rudd and Chub are of GREAT interest to anglers, certainly in England anyway.

5) In England there are not..... "many species of fish which migrate from the ocean to the tiniest stream" ............... there are two; Salmon and Seatrout, I can't really see the relevance of your mentioning that, but when they return from the sea they would anyway be much larger than your suggested 10 - 20 cm.

6) Of course it's not impossible to estimate fish stocks in rivers, it's not impossible to estimate anything. The Environment Agency in this country however often do better than estimate and do undertake surveys of fish populations in rivers.

David said:

Are Cormorants really a problem to commercial fishermen and hobby anglers?

The alleged mass depletion of commercial and angling clubs' fish stocks in Europe and North America, principally on inland waters, has led to war being declared on the cormorant .

Are the fishermen's fears and claims justified? If so what can be done about it? the following article (translated from the German) presents facts, fiction and suggests solutions.

See: Proact Information


David

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David

Before I start I have to say I am a pleasure fisherman, but havn't fished for about a year now!.
That report may well be valid in Germany, I couldn't say. In the England its not valid. Cormorants in the U.K. have "its reported" denuded lakes of fish stocks. Where the German angler appears to consider Roach, Rudd, and Chub as pest fish from the report, the U.K angler fish for these, apparently the Cormorant prefer these smaller fish!. In the U.K angler have to buy such fish to restock lakes at more than £5 per pound, one pound of fish by your German report ( confirmed by Chris Mead when I asked him ) is one Cormorants daily intake. On one particular lake I have seen upwards of 50 Cormorants from September to March, admittedly many fly to other lakes to feed, I'll assume 10 per day feeding on this lake, for 7 months= 200 days. So thats 2000 Cormorant days at one pound per day=£10000 worth of fish. Fishing clubs can go into receivership with those losses. Where are the other 40 Cormorants eating too?. And thats only one local lake. Its almost impossible to catch small fish in that lake, the ones that survive do grow big though!, but not many do survive.
Cormorants in the U.K. also inhabit tree lined and shallow lakes, which apparently in Germany they don't, or at least its advised that they don't by the report.
The report says that anglers overstock to a damaging extent, for the majority of clubs thats rubbish as all legal stocking of fish is done under license from the Environmetal Agency, and no club would willingly throw away money.
It also appears that the Cormorants in tests in Switzerland also prefer to catch and eat fish with a particular tapeworm!.
Its my belief they will catch and eat whatever they can get they're bill around!.

I quote from the end of the German report:

"They should also be advised that cormorants have hunted in European waters for a long time and that, in the 21st Century, competition jealousy and unfounded quasi-scientific theories will have no influence on the implementation of urgently required nature and species protection measures throughout Europe."

I would say as a U.K. angler. And a birder who likes Cormorants, that report is an unfounded quasi-scientific theory.
It may be true for Germany but very doubtful elsewhere, and not in the U.K.

Alan Rymer

The Cormorant's favoured food in Britain is eels - and that, as far as I know, is not a popular fish with anglers (not least because they are predatory and eat a lot of fish that fishermen do want to catch)

Cormorants are also part of the natural freshwater ecosystem in Britain. The recent increase in numbers merely reflects a (partial) recovery from abnormally low numbers due to historical persecution (particularly in the period 1750-1950). They may reduce fish numbers on lakes (many angling lakes hold far more fish than their natural carrying capacity), but they won't "denude" them of fish; once the fish numbers drop to a more natural level, the Cormorants will find it hard to catch them, and will move on (or starve), thereby keeping a natural balance.

One other option: re-introduce White-tailed Eagles to England. They will raid Cormorant colonies, again helping keep a natural balance.

Michael

When are we going to recognize that, ultimately, it's humans that upset the balance of nature?

Beverlybaynes said:

When are we going to recognize that, ultimately, it's humans that upset the balance of nature?

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Beverly,
Hear! Hear!. Not to appear snobbish, but I always find these types of articles presenting an "apologetica" for man's rapaciousness extremely tedious and inane. Just how do intelligent people think Nature got along before Man started throwing so many monkey-wrenches into the works!!

Beverlybaynes said:

When are we going to recognize that, ultimately, it's humans that upset the balance of nature?

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Beverly

Thats total rubbish!.
Balance is balance, and thats what it means. One thing changes and other things change to make up for this!. I suppose man can ultimately be blamed for everything going wrong?. Like wiping out the stone age mammals inhabiting the North America landmass. But can people be blamed for West Nile Virus?. Or the Global warmin or Freezing thats supposed to be mans fault, even though those things happened without mans intervention in the past. Are the heavy snows and tornadoes that happened last year mans fault, or the rains recently in Louisiana.
Its easy to blame, and almost impossible to disprove!. More unfounded quasi-scientific theories?.

Added as an afterthought.

Man does cause problems taking actions without knowing what the end result is going to be, but there again, who can know what the end result will be, but someone can always say"Look, I was right".
Problems caused by man in the U.K.s recent past:
Introduction of Mink, Grey Squirrel, Signal Crayfish, Coypu, Ruddy Duck. Canadian Pondweed, Himalayan Balsam.
Eradications caused by man: Dodo on the one hand, Smallpox on the other!.

Michael Frankis said:

The Cormorant's favoured food in Britain is eels - and that, as far as I know, is not a popular fish with anglers (not least because they are predatory and eat a lot of fish that fishermen do want to catch)

Cormorants are also part of the natural freshwater ecosystem in Britain. The recent increase in numbers merely reflects a (partial) recovery from abnormally low numbers due to historical persecution (particularly in the period 1750-1950). They may reduce fish numbers on lakes (many angling lakes hold far more fish than their natural carrying capacity), but they won't "denude" them of fish; once the fish numbers drop to a more natural level, the Cormorants will find it hard to catch them, and will move on (or starve), thereby keeping a natural balance.

One other option: re-introduce White-tailed Eagles to England. They will raid Cormorant colonies, again helping keep a natural balance.

Michael

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Micheal

It might well be that the Cormorants favorite food is eels, but in this area of the country its mainly gravel pits. There are usually no streams flowing from the pits into rivers so its difficult for elvers to get into the pits, thats not to say none do, some manage to get there, but not many. You do not catch the little bootlaces that you find in ponds and lakes with streams attached. I have never caught an Eel in Berkshire, from pit pond lake or river!. I do know there are Eels in my local river as I have seen them in an Eel trap.
Cormorants have not been a natural part of the ecosystem in my memory in this part of the country until the past ten years, but there again, Gravel pits have always been a part of the local ecosystem in my memory.
Most club waters hold a naturally sustainable head of fish!.
Some waters, where anglers pay for a days fishing and are guaranteed to catch are overstocked and rely on the anglers to keep the fish fed with bait, these tend to be run as a business.
Its unlikely that Cormorants would denude a lake of fish, larger fish, fish in hard to get to area's along with fry will survive to spawn and restock a lake over 5 years or so if its not raided again. Cormorants will catch all they can before moving on!. As I said in my recent post, one pound of fish per day per Cormorant, Cormorants prefer to hunt in flocks, a line of them driving fish in front of them.

Cormorant comments

Thanks for all the comments to date. *BTW* I neither wrote the article, nor do I state anywhere that it is infallible. I thought it might be useful to add another national perspective to this debate (as so often in BF comments tend to be narrowly 'English' suggesting that the British Isles are another planet rather than a geographical part of Europe - OK the West Palaeartctic if you like!).

The article is on the website of the Committee against Bird Slaughter which (@ Cuckooroller) neither goes in for

"apologetica" for man's rapaciousness

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nor would I describe their work as

extremely tedious and inane

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Rather than being armchair theorists or nature lovers (we need these as well) they fight on the front line with legal methods against bird and animal hunters and often risk life and limb to do so. The article is one of many in their efforts to get animal and bird protection promoted onto a modern and intelligent level in Europe.

First of all a few general points on the cormorants:

I watch birds, and campaign for their conservation, because I believe that the balance of nature is important and that man has continually upset it and will continue to do so unless we work against it.
With a few exceptions I disagree with all forms of hunting, and infliction of pain on animals for human pleasure - unequivocally when it is practised as a 'sport'. I accept that there is a degree of barbarity, with say bullfighting at one end of the spectrum, angling somewhere in the middle and keeping birds in cages at the other. But this order of merit is a subjective judgement.
I appreciate the value of commercial inland fisheries, particularly as we have almost fished our oceans dry; but to subordinate all else to the financial element, and to raise fish in 'unnatural' conditions, will not go unpunished by Mother Nature (see BSE and other more recent disasters).
White-tailed Eagles is (are?) an interesting thought Michael but does/will it work. On a lake close to Berlin there is a thriving cormorant colony and several pairs of WTE. The latter clearly prefer a diet of geese, ducks, carrion (mostly deer) and (I believe) rabbit. I've never eaten cormorant but I suspect the WTE have good taste in this respect
I really can't go into the arguments of which fish species sport and pleasure anglers prefer to catch, and how the cormorants spoil their fun or deplete their assets, as it is for me irrelevant. There can surely be no comparison between the pleasure of watching a free-flying bird and a fish with a hook through its flesh struggling to get free. Sorry chaps - wrong century. And possibly the wrong forum for promotion of blood sports?

David said:

Thanks for all the comments to date. *BTW* I neither wrote the article, nor do I state anywhere that it is infallible.

There can surely be no comparison between the pleasure of watching a free-flying bird and a fish with a hook through its flesh struggling to get free. Sorry chaps - wrong century. And possibly the wrong forum for promotion of blood sports?

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I am not promoting bloodsports!. Just adding a little bias ( my word ) from the other side of the fence.
Get rid of anglers and angling clubs and you have an awful lot of empty landfill sites!

David said:

Are Cormorants really a problem to commercial fishermen and hobby anglers?

The alleged mass depletion of commercial and angling clubs' fish stocks in Europe and North America, principally on inland waters, has led to war being declared on the cormorant .

Are the fishermen's fears and claims justified? If so what can be done about it? the following article (translated from the German) presents facts, fiction and suggests solutions.

See: Proact Information


David

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Sorry David,

I had not read the article of the URL and was reacting to your original stated premise above. You have, I'm sure seen more articles than I have, starting with some type of premise somehow then giving a well thought out and apparently logical explication of why it is OK, for whatever subject is being considered, for man to intervene again and adjust things, as it were, to his liking and ultimate benefit where the bottom line always seems to be, to the detriment of the natural balance of nature. Of course, whether or not, each one of us sees Man's intervention, and in what measure, as being natural, or not, is opinable and open to discussion and will always be so.

alan_rymer said:

I am not promoting bloodsports!. Just adding a little bias ( my word ) from the other side of the fence.
Get rid of anglers and angling clubs and you have an awful lot of empty landfill sites!

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.... or nature reserves??? How much do you want for your water? How about a starting bid of € 1000 the hectare? I can't afford more than 20 ha. B

@ cuckooroller

cuckooroller said:

Sorry David,

I had not read the article of the URL and was reacting to your original stated premise above. You have, I'm sure seen more articles than I have, starting with some type of premise somehow then giving a well thought out and apparently logical explication of why it is OK, for whatever subject is being considered, for man to intervene again and adjust things, as it were, to his liking and ultimate benefit where the bottom line always seems to be, to the detriment of the natural balance of nature. Of course, whether or not, each one of us sees Man's intervention, and in what measure, as being natural, or not, is opinable and open to discussion and will always be so.

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No question of, or intention to, intervene here. We just want to stop people shooting cormorants - or blinding the young in the nests with lasers, the latest cry in humane 'conservation'. If the commercial fishermen want to protect their stocks by passive means them let them do so: the cormorants will go elsewhere. Sorry sport anglers!

That's that point cleared up I hope :eat:

David said:

...
Rather than being armchair theorists or nature lovers (we need these as well) they fight on the front line with legal methods against bird and animal hunters and often risk life and limb to do so. The article is one of many in their efforts to get animal and bird protection promoted onto a modern and intelligent level in Europe.

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David,

I note from your biography that you spent 22 years as an army officer. This is self-evident from much of the terminology you use here, e.g. "..they fight on the front line" and "risk life and limb." Your army life is in the past - you are a civilian now. But I'll bet you still can't resist wearing camouflage clothing and a balaclava when taking part in some of the more contentious self-appointed "legal methods" you refer to.

In my opinion, you have already exposed yourself as an extremist who is unable to accept that anyone can possibly hold a viewpoint which does not dove-tail exactly with your own lop-sided views. Clearly in your book there are only two sides to every story - yours and the wrong one, which is sure to bring you into conflict with those whose toes you are trampling on.

Perhaps before you pontificate any further on the cormorant -v- fishing issue you will have the good grace to do some homework on the subject and
listen to what people such as Alan Rymer are saying, which is based on their own first-hand experiences. I've been involved in coarse fishing for around sixty years, including all aspects of fishery management for the benefit of ALL groups of users, not just anglers. I can assure you that the increase in cormorant numbers on the UK's inland waters over the last ten years has had a disastrous effect on the pleasure many people derive from fishing.

In my book, Alan Rymer is being far too polite - I reckon you're talking crap when it comes to cormorants!

I used to be a really keen fisherman. I don't do it as much as I used to. But there is no denying that Cormorants have decimated the sport that I used to love. 3 Lakes that I fish have lost all the Crucian Carp, Skimmer Bream etc. When a small 5 acre lake is visited by up to 10 Cormorants a day in the winter, there is only one result.

I used to think culling was the answer, but now I am not so sure. If you shot 10 Cormorants, I am quite sure 10 would reappear from somewhere.

I used to sympathise with my fellow fishermen and their declining catches. But when I found out that G.Crested Grebes were routinely shot on my waters, Canada geese eggs destroyed, Tufted Duck, Coot and Water Hen nests destroyed by match anglers who have been misinformed that these birds attract Cormorants, I cannot feel sympathy anymore.

Cormorants are here, and they are here to stay. mBut I wish they weren't

Just a minute Anthony

Let's not get all heated and personal about this:

Anthony Morton said:

David,

I note from your biography that you spent 22 years as an army officer. This is self-evident from much of the terminology you use here, e.g. "..they fight on the front line" and "risk life and limb." Your army life is in the past - you are a civilian now. But I'll bet you still can't resist wearing camouflage clothing and a balaclava when taking part in some of the more contentious self-appointed "legal methods" you refer to.!

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Nothing is what it seems in this world is it? From your profile I see that you are a Buckingham male, presumably my vintage plus (1943) if you've been fishing for over 60 years. Do you have a rubber fetish and like doing it outdoors in water?

1. The Army was, and as far as I know still is, a respectable and necessary career in UK (until Thatcher and Blair misused the Armed Forces for their own petty political ends).

2. I am not some sort of balaclava, buckles, brass and netting Sado Masochist. On the contrary, I spent the latter part of my time in the Army (as a general staff officer), and 9 years in the Diplomatic Service, promoting conservation and tidying up after the troops (eg. producing training maps in conjunction with German foresters and Environment officials to protect breeding areas outside nature reserves and reclamation and restoration of military training areas. I am now a some what docile grandfather; but still determined to do all I can to rescue as much as possible of what I got from nature so that my (and other) grandkids can enjoy it as well.

3. I am not an active member of the Committee against Bird Slaughter (2 heart attacks leave me, at my age, at the starting post) but I support them in other ways. far from being some sort of eco-terrorists they are a registered charity organisation who have recently been given the best points in Germany by the magazine Ökotest (a sort of Eco-Which) for cost effective conservation. To give just one example they work in Italy together with the Carabinieri, Forestry police and the courts to bring poachers and illegal hunters to justice. See my recentreport in Bird Forums here and a picture of the 'militants' and what they are campaigning for below

Anthony Morton said:

Perhaps before you pontificate any further on the cormorant -v- fishing issue you will have the good grace to do some homework on the subject and listen to what people such as Alan Rymer are saying, which is based on their own first-hand experiences. I've been involved in coarse fishing for around sixty years, including all aspects of fishery management for the benefit of ALL groups of users, not just anglers. I can assure you that the increase in cormorant numbers on the UK's inland waters over the last ten years has had a disastrous effect on the pleasure many people derive from fishing.

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I was not pontificating AFAIK. I posted a translation of an article on birds of general interest - drew fire (I can't resist it Anthony ) from the fishing community (some 80% of the ball in play to date) and replied with my own views on the matter to clear the air. I am not forcing my views down anybody else's throat; but do find it interesting that the birds (and the cormorant is far from being my favourite bird either - ugly and smelly as well) have to be vilified and killed for "doing what comes naturally".

Anthony Morton said:

In my book, Alan Rymer is being far too polite

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Very polite and not a trace of foam at the mouth. I've replied to him in similar tones as well.

Anthony Morton said:

I reckon you're talking crap when it comes to cormorants!

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If it makes you feel better to think that then I can't stop you Anthony.

People who count their chickens before they are hatched, act very wisely, because chickens run about so absurdly that it is impossible to count them accurately.

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Oscar Wilde - and if "chickens" = "fish" and "run" = "swim"?

... and the cormorants aren't yet off the hook yet in Italy. Another of my cross-dressing militant undercover operations I'm afraid.

Perhaps I should get a new avatar? The villain of the piece (see below) perhaps?

David said:

... and the cormorants aren't yet off the hook yet in Italy. Another of my cross-dressing militant undercover operations I'm afraid.?

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Good news!.

David said:

... Perhaps I should get a new avatar? The villain of the piece (see below) perhaps?

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Wind-up merchant!.? ( thats wind as in string, not wind as in blow!)

David said:

Let's not get all heated and personal about this:

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Oh, alright then.

David said:

Nothing is what it seems in this world is it? From your profile I see that you are a Buckingham male, presumably my vintage plus (1943) if you've been fishing for over 60 years. Do you have a rubber fetish and like doing it outdoors in water?

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Curses, my secret's out. Who 'split' on me - was it Vinyl Vera?

I am now a some what docile grandfather; but still determined to do all I can to rescue as much as possible of what I got from nature so that my (and other) grandkids can enjoy it as well.

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I knew it! So there IS common ground between us which perhaps we can explore. I agree with you about our grandchildren and I would love mine to experience just once the utter thrill of a 1940's - 1950's full-bloodied dawn chorus which I used to enjoy so much as a youngster - especially if it was while fishing for tench on a warm, still June/July morning, with wisps of mist still rising from the water. What absolute bliss!

I am not an active member of the Committee against Bird Slaughter (2 heart attacks leave me, at my age, at the starting post) but I support them in other ways.

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Sorry to hear about your health problems. I've managed to stay clear of them so far, despite constant over-indulgance. I put it down to all that extra curricula exercise I undertake with my 'friend' Vinyl Vera (bless her!) and her earlier 'sisters'.

I was not pontificating AFAIK. I posted a translation of an article on birds of general interest - drew fire (I can't resist it Anthony ) from the fishing community (some 80% of the ball in play to date) and replied with my own views on the matter to clear the air. I am not forcing my views down anybody else's throat; but do find it interesting that the birds (and the cormorant is far from being my favourite bird either - ugly and smelly as well) have to be vilified and killed for "doing what comes naturally".

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Will you accept from this that anglers are extremely concerned for the welfare of the UK's coarse fish? Quite often these fish have been bought and paid for by them as part of regular restocking programmes undertaken at considerable expense by their clubs and associations. By comparison, the 'problem' with cormorants on inland waters is a relatively new one, brought about by a massive increase in their numbers over the last 10 years. Have they simply reproduced at record rates, or are they moving inland away from over-fished inshore waters - or even coming over from europe? Whatever the reason, I'm quite prepared to accept that it's probably a man made one which has dropped this unwanted problem into the anglers' laps!

Can I conclude with a couple of statistics I've seen? A cormorant consumes between 500g and 750g of live fish per day. In monetary terms (sorry to bring it down to the 'filthy lucre' level!) this represents around £10 - £15 per bird/per day. Even at the lower end, this adds up to an annual dinner bill of £3,650 for EVERY cormorant on our inland waters. Can you perhaps understand from this huge amount why they are currently the least popular bird with coarse and some game anglers?

Kind regards - and Vinyl Vera sends her love too!

Anthony

Anthony :flowers:

Anthony Morton said:

Oh, alright then.

Curses, my secret's out. Who 'split' on me - was it Vinyl Vera?

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It won't go any further if I can go two's up - I'll stay on the bank with a blanket though.

I knew it! So there IS common ground between us which perhaps we can explore. I agree with you about our grandchildren and I would love mine to experience just once the utter thrill of a 1940's - 1950's full-bloodied dawn chorus

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With you all the way there.

Sorry to hear about your health problems. I've managed to stay clear of them so far, despite constant over-indulgance. I put it down to all that extra curricula exercise I undertake

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Sounds familiar. I've even inceased the frequency since I was warned of jogging (irregular heartbeat) and the doc (Herr Doktor) advised me to try a form of exercise with a steadier rythym and better absorbtion and less schock waves for the muscles ............ like cycling. I cycle as well!

Will you accept from this that anglers are extremely concerned for the welfare of the UK's coarse fish?

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I thought you'd never ask

But seriously - of course. Doesn't convert me to angling though. And certainly not to fast fishery with antibiotics gene manupilation (over 2,000,000 of those have 'escaped' in European rivers!!) and the rest. I used to like my bit of smoked salmon but nowadays you don't know where it's been

... the 'problem' with cormorants on inland waters is a relatively new one, brought about by a massive increase in their numbers over the last 10 years. Have they ... even (..come..) over from europe? Whatever the reason, I'm quite prepared to accept that it's probably a man made one which has dropped this unwanted problem into the anglers' laps!

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Don't pass the buck back over here. If they did fly over it was more likely to seek political asylum.

A cormorant consumes between 500g and 750g of live fish per day. In monetary terms (sorry to bring it down to the 'filthy lucre' level!) this represents around £10 - £15 per bird/per day. Even at the lower end, this adds up to an annual dinner bill of £3,650 for EVERY cormorant on our inland waters. Can you perhaps understand from this huge amount why they are currently the least popular bird with coarse and some game anglers?

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Of course. But we can get into deeper waters here (you see - I can do naval terms too!). I don't know what a fishing permit costs for say a good stretch of fly fishing river (I'm not sure where the boundary is between "coarse" amd "game" fishing. I was not a "coarse" rugby player; but it was an amateur game then.); but I am sure that some landowners dislike the prospect of losing paying guests from abroad. It's a quick drift into the analagous poisoning of Hen Harriers on grouse moors then.

Kind regards - and Vinyl Vera sends her love too!

Anthony

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I'd far rather have her phone number :eat: