Honey Buzzard questions, Lunigiana Italy (1 Viewer)

I'm trying to figure out what is happening in the valley this season.

Would you say this HB is most probably a male, despite a somewhat dusky edge to the wings, patterning in the hand, and rather closely-spaced and undefined tail barring? Fingertips look ink-dipped enough, and the proportions more male.

I am remembering some talk about older females acquiring male characteristics. It doesn't look to me like an old bird.

seen 1 August circling high over the house, when it was repeatedly attacked by the female of the Hobby pair nesting in the wood next door.

it looks like a female to my eyes

Thanks, Tom, a beautiful fine female, could she be a young one? can you tell age from different generations of feathers?

I guess the single photo below is more clearly a bulky female, seen 29th July circling above our hill for a while (Hobbys left her alone). Am I seeing new inner primaries growing in, while the female in the first post above is mainly growing in the inner secondaries of her right wing, with fresh Ps 1 and 2, still missing P3?

Kinthissa said:

Thanks, Tom, a beautiful fine female, could she be a young one? can you tell age from different generations of feathers?

I guess the single photo below is more clearly a bulky female, seen 29th July circling above our hill for a while (Hobbys left her alone). Am I seeing new inner primaries growing in, while the female in the first post above is mainly growing in the inner secondaries of her right wing, with fresh Ps 1 and 2, still missing P3?

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It is a moulting adult. Juvenile don't moult first year, and second year birds are used to stay in Africa... so she is 3cy+ = adult.

Kinthissa said:

Thanks, Tom, a beautiful fine female, could she be a young one? can you tell age from different generations of feathers?

I guess the single photo below is more clearly a bulky female, seen 29th July circling above our hill for a while (Hobbys left her alone). Am I seeing new inner primaries growing in, while the female in the first post above is mainly growing in the inner secondaries of her right wing, with fresh Ps 1 and 2, still missing P3?

Click to expand...

agree with moult and also agree with Valery, one single record ever with photographic evidence that a 2nd cy returned to Europe

Hi Valéry! Thank you. It was the + to 3cy i was wondering about, can age be read in the feathering after that? Is she is a young adult? sorry if I am asking a silly question. May be in HBs there's no more telling of age after their third calendar year? Questions of an amateur.

Thank you Tom, I posted just now then saw your reply. I guess my beginner's questions have been answered in a way ~ HBs reach adulthood by their third calendar year. From then on, their age cannot be seen in the feathering. Is this more or less the situation?

Kinthissa said:

Hi Valéry! Thank you. It was the + to 3cy i was wondering about, can age be read in the feathering after that? Is she is a young adult? sorry if I am asking a silly question. May be in HBs there's no more telling of age after their third calendar year? Questions of an amateur.

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AFAIK, no way to give more precision in age.

Still trying to figure out what's happening with the HBs this year, I'm seeing two birds I think I recognize, but the moult details are no longer there, their wing-edges are even. I would be glad for an answer to this question ~

About how long would it take for the primaries on these two birds to finish growing in/be replaced?

pix 1 & 2 : HB male, 27th July, I think P2 growing, P3 missing (all grown in by 10 Aug? 18 Aug?)

pix 3 &4 : HB female, 29th July, Ps2&3 growing in (grown in by 6 Aug? at that sighting, only the outermost tail feathers were left)

in smaller raptors as here it takes about 20-30 days for one primary to grow to final length (40-60 days in large raptors). Be aware that most migrating raptors will stop moult before leaving (no new primaries shed, moult gaps getting smaller) and resume moult once arrived in winter quarters

Without checking the original sources I recall a rough average of 5 or 6 mm per day regrowth rate for flight feathers in a selection of raptors, so just guessing at the gaps in your images (where new inner primaries are already quite well grown), probably both first and second birds would have a near 'correct' wing surface by the end of August, fine for migration! (But that second female might well have a somewhat incomplete taill!).
PS Haven't set eyes on a Honey here on the other side of the Apennines for several days...)
PPS: just remembered the latest post on my Honey blog, 4th image down, shows a male Honey-buzzard with significant moult gaps on 28 July and substantial regrowth just 8 days later...
Brian

Thank you very much, Tom and Brian, this has been very instructive, and the latest post on the HB blog shows clearly the fast re-growth of inner primaries and tail feathers on one male in particular. It's somewhat uncanny, that the latest post on the HB blog mentions just what I'm struggling with (it's happened several times). It's brilliant to also see that same male earlier in the season, before moult.

Yesterday late morning we heard distant calls of an HB; I found the caller very high, in the fierce glare of the sun nearing noon. It was circling incredibly slowly, at moments almost as if it was wind-hanging, and I even began to wonder if it was an STE (two had come by earlier in the morning). But it was clearly an HB, and not a male (usually even at great distances and in my poor photographs, a male's dark edges show up).

I then noticed another HB, overhead and not as high : the photos seem to show the bulky moulting female on this thread! distant images but clear enough to see her wings near perfect, a "swallow-tail" with more central tail feathers gone than in the photo from 29th July. On 6th August, I had seen her with a male over the distant eastern hills, she had a plump prey item that was visible between a hugely gapped tail.

I lost the bulky female overhead as she disappeared into the heat haze. The first Honey went on calling, a farewell to these valleys? - gradually moving SSE, towards the Apuan Alps. A couple of times in previous years, I've seen HBs late in the season gather in that direction, and I have wondered if it is the gateway to their migration route back to Africa.

Below are yesterday's two Honey buzzards (each with an earlier photo for comparison), might you be able to see if the first HB (which was the bird that was calling) is also a female? - in which case might there be the possibility that it is the slimmer female that Tom identified at the start of this thread? Only now with the inner primaries and the secondaries of her right wing nicely even (but innermost secondaries of each wing still missing). Are the lighter semi-transparent flight feathers the worn ones being kept for migration, while the darker opaque ones are the newly replaced feathers?

Female (?) 1 : pic 1 (1 Aug, as posted above); pix 2 & 3 (20 August)

Female 2 : pic 4 (29 July, as posted above); pic 5 (20 August)

p.s. for Brian, last week your HBs may have just been feeding discreetly, their season here may be later than usual this year (I am hoping!)