Red-billed Leiothrix assistance, Himalayas. REVISITED (1 Viewer)

I've been advised that this picture may show either a sub-adult male or an eclipse male.

Is it possible to tell?

https://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/602482/cat/all/limit/last7

I'd tentatively suggest that it's a female?



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andyadcock said:

I'd tentatively suggest that it's a female?



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My thought as well.

Thanks very much guys. Strangely female wasn't suggested to me before.

Does anyone have a description for a female, I can't find one on line?

Being an old cheapskate, I don't pay for the HBWAlive, where the female plumage would no doubt be described.

Looks like a female that I found pics of

https://www.google.com/search?q=fem...hUG71MKHStOAToQ9QEIUDAD#imgrc=WxoyefyUTlPapM:

And this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-billed_leiothrix

Thanks KC

delia todd said:

Thanks very much guys. Strangely female wasn't suggested to me before.

Does anyone have a description for a female, I can't find one on line?

Being an old cheapskate, I don't pay for the HBWAlive, where the female plumage would no doubt be described.

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The one I have access to is in Craig Robson's Birds of SE Asia, if I have time tommorow, I'll copy it over.


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Oh thanks very much Andy. I'd be grateful. It'd be good to improve the ID section in The Opus.

Hi Delia,

Funnily enough on Saturday my wife and I went for a walk on a (low) mountain top park on the Ikoma Mountains between Osaka and Nara in Japan.

Our main goal was a nice walk in the few pleasantly warm (only 25ºC max) weeks of the year we get here (it was 16ºC max a couple of weeks ago, and will be over 30ºC soon; spring seems to be only a couple of weeks long these days), but were also looking out for migrants. There were loads of Narcissus Flycatchers and Eastern Crowned Warblers, but these, and the local Japanese White-eyes and Japanese Bush Warblers, were having a terrible time trying to make themselves heard over the Red-billed Leiothrix of which there is a huge population on this one peak (but not for some reason on the other peaks in the linked chain of parks along this ridge).

Anyway, I've never particularly noticed a strong sexual dimorphism or seasonal variation, but then we don't look at these escapees carefully much.

My New Year present to myself was a subscription to HBW Alive. I thought I'd give it a year to see how much I used it. What I was hoping for was more detailed information on migration dates, food preferences, seasonal plumage variation and things like that than even local guides often seem to provide. (For what it's worth: I don't use it as often as I expected to, but when I do use it, it is very helpful, if not as much as I sometimes would like.)

And so to your photo of Leiothrix: whether or not there is a question of sex or age, I wonder if the sub-species might be relevant. In particular, the illustration and description of ssp kumaensis in HBW seems to fit your photo fairly well, and possibly also the location where the photo was taken. For example, the basically black bill with a red tip (rather than a red bill with a small black base) fits this, as does the wing pattern (if the single reddish secondary is being hidden).

I'm not copy-pasting from HBW because I presume there are copyright issues, but if anyone says it's OK, I'll be happy to post the sub-species info from there.

I'm not claiming to know the bird is of this ssp; this is just a comment.

Just to add, the pic has a very strong red/orange cast, which affects how the bird looks.

Thanks very much McNara.

I'm not copy-pasting from HBW because I presume there are copyright issues, but if anyone says it's OK, I'll be happy to post the sub-species info from there.

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I think it's OK to do this in a post, so long as you quote the source.

My problem with it being one of the two Himalayan subspecies, is that I thought we had an example of both in The Opus article, and this bird looks so different from either of them. ..... I've still to work out which subspecies it is anyway LOL

Hi again Delia,

I thought the bird you asked about looked like this bird, which I find is actually a link to the Internet Bird Collection, not HBW copyright stuff. Note the lack of red in the wing panel (though there is a hint of one mostly hidden red secondary, which I mentioned earlier would seem to fit with kumaiensis. Also note the bill pattern which fits, too.

From HBW Alive: Small olive-grey babbler with forked tail, red bill, yellow throat, orange-yellow breast, and red to yellow wing markings....Race kwangtungensis is like nominate, but with yellower-tinged crown to nape, more olive-toned posterior upperparts, yellower face, neck side and underparts, orange patch at base of secondaries; kumaiensis has greener crown with more restricted yellowish wash than nominate, little or no chestnut-red wing patch but orange-red distal outer fringes of inner primaries, patch at base of secondaries orange; calipyga is similar to previous but yellower above, orange-red fringes of inner primaries extending entire length of feathers; yunnanensis is similar to kumaiensis above, but lores and ocular area whitish, chin to breast paler, wing with no red or orange colouring.

I have no persosnal experience of these birds except for the local escapee population I mentioned, so this post exhausts my knowledge. I hope someone from or with knowledge of the bird's home range will comment.

Thanks so much McNara.

It'll take me a while to work through the comparisons of that little lot LOL. But hopefully I'll get there eventually. A very quick run through, I can't see mention of what I see as the marked facial difference in the OP bird.

Craig Robson 'Field guide to the birds of SE Asia'

'Female - More greenish Brown, greyer ear coverts, weaker submoustachial stripe, paler below.'


I assume though that this decription, won't cover the races from S Asia?



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Thanks Andy.... it does seem to have be a rather closer match to Vipul's picture, linked in the OP, don't you think?

The OP has much paler lores and a greyer back but looks similar yes.

It's odd, that nowhere do they mention the extent of black on the bill or what it's relative to e.g gender or age?


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?

LOL the description of the female you posted and the picture I linked to in the Gallery, do seem to be a fairly good match. Is what I was referring to.

Or am I missing something?

delia todd said:

My problem with it being one of the two Himalayan subspecies, is that I thought we had an example of both in The Opus article, and this bird looks so different from either of them. ..... I've still to work out which subspecies it is anyway LOL

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Based on the ranges given in HBW, birds in Uttarakhand should be kumaiensis. I think you do have photos of both Himalayan subspecies in Opus (at least, you should on the basis of ranges), but I think all pictures on the opus page are males.

On our local birds, the males are distinctly brighter than females. The bibs are more orange, especially towards the breast, and there is more extensive orange/red in the wing. The pale ear coverts are more clearly marked. I think the underparts are also darker green, creating more contrast with the orange breast and the yellow undertail coverts (more uniform overall on females). There is some individual variation and possibly some overlap but generally I think they can be sexed, especially when looking at several in a flock. Assuming these differences hold true for kumaiensis, I agree the OP bird is a female.

I always thought that the bill colour was linked to age, with juveniles having dark bills. Looking through pictures now, that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe it is a seasonal difference, with redder bills during the breeding season? I will need to look out for this in future.

Thanks so much for your reply John.

I think the consensus is for a female, and I'm glad you've helped me with the subspecies for her too (saves me a lot of time trying to study a map LOL).

I'll upload her to the article shortly.

Thanks again, everyone, for your input.

Sorry guys, I've come back for more help.

The picture we have of subspecies calipyga, should be correct on range, but doesn't look like the description of the subspecies (in the Variations section)?

Can anyone offer any assistance with this please?