Dodotronics or Parabolic Microphone UK? (3 Viewers)

[Sirpotato]

I'd like to start making recording using a parabolic microphone setup but I'm a bit lost where to start.

I saw the Dodotronics Hi-sound Compact with the USB interface which looks good...

But then I also saw the Parabolic Microphone UK kit which is much cheaper and a larger dish but I'd need to get a recorder.

(Parabolic Reflector)

Which one would be more likely to give the higher quality audio or is the best one?

 

[Jon.Bryant]

This is not a straightforward question.

Basically there are two basic parameters to be considered - the dish diameter and the accuracy of the parabola.

With a larger dish you will get gain applied to lower frequencies - with a smaller dish there is no advantage of using the parabola for low frequency sounds such as owls or Eurasian Bittern- the sound will be no different to using the mic without a dish. Basically the wave length needs to fit within the dish for there to be any gain.

The next thing is probably a bit less certain. Basically there is a factor to account for perfection and material of the dish. This factor is directly proportional to gain achieved. From memory I think the factor ranges from 0.5 to 0.7, so a great dish should be noticeable better than a less perfect one. I have always assumed that you get what you pay for, but this is an act of faith as no one issues data on this factor. Telinga and Dodotronics parabolic mic are generally well received, so I think you can’t go too far wrong (if you are willing to incur the expense)

As a side issue, bearin mind that a parabola s a tool for certain uses. Parabolas do not have a flat frequency response, with gain increasing with frequency. This is meant to recreate nearness, as higher frequency sounds disípate quickest. However, I recall recording in Lesbos’ and meeting one of the guys from the Sound Approach, who was keen to hint that they had done the area ‘properly and without parabolic mics’. I think parabolas are great tools for when you can’t get close, but when you can get close an open mic may well yield nicer sounding results.

Forgot to say that another thing to think of is the mic capsule - self noise, sensitivity (and if you are looking at a stereo parabola the mics need to be matched pairs). How do the datashhets for your two options compare? This is one area where manufacturers (well at least Dodotronics do provide good data).

 

[Sirpotato]

Thank you for your awesome response Jon!

I think I considered the parabola as the go for me as I'm in Australia so there is usually quite a distance between me and the bird, so I'm frequently using a 10x binocular for that little bit of extra reach. So I thought it would be best to go for a parabola instead of a shotgun mic.

I definitely like how the Dodotronics compact dish looks and it seems to be very high quality, which I'm guessing would also apply to the mics used and the interface too. I wish I could get the bigger parabola but at the same time I think I'd be less inclined to use it as I'd like to still carry my scope or bins.

I was originally thinking of just getting the Dodotronic song interface so I can process everything through my smartphone and use Merlin/BirdNET at the same time to get IDs, but I guess having the option of the extra microphone on something like a Tascam recorder to enable open mic would useful?

The other option I have would be the Sennheiser MKE 600 + Tascam DR-40X which works out $100 more.

Which would you go for Jon?

This is not a straightforward question.

Basically there are two basic parameters to be considered - the dish diameter and the accuracy of the parabola.

With a larger dish you will get gain applied to lower frequencies - with a smaller dish there is no advantage of using the parabola for low frequency sounds such as owls or Eurasian Bittern- the sound will be no different to using the mic without a dish. Basically the wave length needs to fit within the dish for there to be any gain.

The next thing is probably a bit less certain. Basically there is a factor to account for perfection and material of the dish. This factor is directly proportional to gain achieved. From memory I think the factor ranges from 0.5 to 0.7, so a great dish should be noticeable better than a less perfect one. I have always assumed that you get what you pay for, but this is an act of faith as no one issues data on this factor. Telinga and Dodotronics parabolic mic are generally well received, so I think you can’t go too far wrong (if you are willing to incur the expense)

As a side issue, bearin mind that a parabola s a tool for certain uses. Parabolas do not have a flat frequency response, with gain increasing with frequency. This is meant to recreate nearness, as higher frequency sounds disípate quickest. However, I recall recording in Lesbos’ and meeting one of the guys from the Sound Approach, who was keen to hint that they had done the area ‘properly and without parabolic mics’. I think parabolas are great tools for when you can’t get close, but when you can get close an open mic may well yield nicer sounding results.

Forgot to say that another thing to think of is the mic capsule - self noise, sensitivity (and if you are looking at a stereo parabola the mics need to be matched pairs). How do the datashhets for your two options compare? This is one area where manufacturers (well at least Dodotronics do provide good data).

 

[Jon.Bryant]

I am a sucker for new gear - hopefully not quite ‘all the gear no idea’!

I have previously looked at both the Dodotronics pieces of kit that you mention, to see whether they could be of use to me. The slight problem I have with both is that although I love kit, I am also a big fan of 32bit float recordings.

With the interface you can use your phone like a proper recorder (you can monitor on headphones) and also use Merlin (or other apps), but I recall that the interface output to the phone is max 24 bit non-float - in fact I am not sure whether any phones can handle 32 bit float files. So the interface saves having to buy a 24 bit recorder, you get a simple way to use Merlin, but you sacrifice the advantages of 32 bit float. The Merlin bit you can solve another way - if you have a line out on your recorder, you should be able to feed this to your phone (but this is more kit, cables and clutter than the interface option).

The compact dish is a bit different. The dish is the little brother of the HR dish, and I understand that it is a stereo parabola with integral Plug in Power mics. For me the beauty of the dish is the size, which could be a great advantage for travel (or even a long day in the field). But I would want to couple the dish with a 32bit float recorder, which would then mean I would need a device with a stereo mini-jack input. All the really small 32bit recorders are mono and the reasonably sized Zoom F3 recorder only has two XLR inputs, so would not be comparable without an additional adaptor. To have to carry a full sized recorder (I know they are not huge) or add an adapter, seems to me a bit against a compact and minimalist parabola set up.

The compact really has been developed for cameras, and whereas you can purchase the kit version with handle, I personally see this as a compromise - a small format parabola (perhaps for travel), but one that will not yield as good a results as a full sized parabola. For me the lack of compact 32 bit float recorder with stereo PiP inputs, means it is not perfect as a travel option.

Obviously gain is also proportional to the area of the dish, so a full sized dish will create more gain than the Dodotronics compact dish. So a big question is how close can you get to birds in Australia? If you are looking to record birds singing from the canopy of the rainforest in Darwin, then perhaps the full size parabola would be better? It you can get near enough, then I think the a the compact will likely outperform any shotgun option (at least for medium to high frequency calls).

I wouldn’t recommend the MKE600 for distant stuff. I use this mic as my holiday kit, attached to a Tentacle Track E recorder. It is a really compact set up and good for close birds, but I am sure that the mic high gain setting will create a lot more self noise than a parabola. Also this small shotgun will be much worse at rejecting off axis noise (and of course it is nicer to have stereo rather than mono).

 

[Sirpotato]

I am a sucker for new gear - hopefully not quite ‘all the gear no idea’!

I have previously looked at both the Dodotronics pieces of kit that you mention, to see whether they could be of use to me. The slight problem I have with both is that although I love kit, I am also a big fan of 32bit float recordings.

With the interface you can use your phone like a proper recorder (you can monitor on headphones) and also use Merlin (or other apps), but I recall that the interface output to the phone is max 24 bit non-float - in fact I am not sure whether any phones can handle 32 bit float files. So the interface saves having to buy a 24 bit recorder, you get a simple way to use Merlin, but you sacrifice the advantages of 32 bit float. The Merlin bit you can solve another way - if you have a line out on your recorder, you should be able to feed this to your phone (but this is more kit, cables and clutter than the interface option).

The compact dish is a bit different. The dish is the little brother of the HR dish, and I understand that it is a stereo parabola with integral Plug in Power mics. For me the beauty of the dish is the size, which could be a great advantage for travel (or even a long day in the field). But I would want to couple the dish with a 32bit float recorder, which would then mean I would need a device with a stereo mini-jack input. All the really small 32bit recorders are mono and the reasonably sized Zoom F3 recorder only has two XLR inputs, so would not be comparable without an additional adaptor. To have to carry a full sized recorder (I know they are not huge) or add an adapter, seems to me a bit against a compact and minimalist parabola set up.

The compact really has been developed for cameras, and whereas you can purchase the kit version with handle, I personally see this as a compromise - a small format parabola (perhaps for travel), but one that will not yield as good a results as a full sized parabola. For me the lack of compact 32 bit float recorder with stereo PiP inputs, means it is not perfect as a travel option.

Obviously gain is also proportional to the area of the dish, so a full sized dish will create more gain than the Dodotronics compact dish. So a big question is how close can you get to birds in Australia? If you are looking to record birds singing from the canopy of the rainforest in Darwin, then perhaps the full size parabola would be better? It you can get near enough, then I think the a the compact will likely outperform any shotgun option (at least for medium to high frequency calls).

I wouldn’t recommend the MKE600 for distant stuff. I use this mic as my holiday kit, attached to a Tentacle Track E recorder. It is a really compact set up and good for close birds, but I am sure that the mic high gain setting will create a lot more self noise than a parabola. Also this small shotgun will be much worse at rejecting off axis noise (and of course it is nicer to have stereo rather than mono).

I think the interface would suit me well then as I think the 24bit would be a good place for me to start without having big audio files whilst learning and it keeps it simple.

I also like the idea that its a small portable unit, but your right sometimes birds are pretty far away here or I usually hear them and can't see them. I'm in WA so I usually spot birds in the distance as forests are few and far in-between here, mostly just flat bushland. Lately I've been doing a lot of seabird and raptor watching as well, so I'm also guessing the bigger parabola is better for those too?

Did you have a look at their Hi-Sound Stereo and Mono EVO models too?

I don't think I could stretch to the cost for their DR model but those two might be viable options as well if they work with the interface.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

I haven’t noticed that 32bit float files are much larger.

I know it sounds daft, but I think actually 32 bit float is simpler than 16 or 24 bit recording. The reason I say this, is because you can literally forget about having to set gain levels. Normally you need to monitor the audio levels then set the gain appropriately - you ideally want a strong signal, but without going over (so a gain level where you just enter the red on your meters). That said, for birds this is not always possible.

I find two problems can occur with birds - sometimes the bird sings, you adjust the gain to the right levels, then the bird stops singing or flies off (so you don’t get a recording, whereas you would have, if you had recorded from the get go - of course you can press record straight away and then play with levels, but the ‘first’ recording will be very odd); or more occasionally, you get the right level, but something changes - the bird turns round or gets closer, or a more interesting and louder bird starts to vocalise - and the recording clips and is ruined. With 32 bit float these issues do not occur. If you are interested in bird calls then I think 32bit float is a real advantage - bird calls are often given intermittently from moving birds, so you don’t get much chance to either monitor or correctly adjust the levels. With 16 and 24 bit, it is generally guess a level and hope.

As I say with 32 bit float I have even stopped monitoring when making some recordings - I used to live in the tropics and found hanging headphones round my neck sweaty and uncomfortable (I also wrecked one pair, the ear phone covers were ruined by either my sun tan lotion, sweat or insect repellant - or a noxious mixture of the three!). I feel like I am carrying a lot less kit and I get into less of a tangle, with just a recorder and a mic.

That said 16 and 24 bit are widely used and people make great recordings. You also will learn how to adjust gain to make a good recording, rather than just relying on technology. I actually have fun using a 16 bit drop rig recorder, where I guess the levels then leave the recorder running autonomously - with this you win some you loose some, but when it works well it is great.

The fact that you are interested in seabird vocals worries me a bit. A lot of seabirds have very wide spectrum calls - they vocalise at low and medium frequencies. As I say, a parabola produces a greater amount of gain as the frequency increases. But the gain starts at the frequency where the wave length equals the dish diameter. For birds that vocalise around one frequency you will not notice any colouring of the recording. For birds that vocalise over a wide frequency, the higher notes will get more gain than the lower - but as I say this is meant to recreate nearness, as high frequency sounds decay quickest over distance. My slight worry is that if the seabird vocalises at a low frequency, you may get no gain to the lower frequency parts of the call and some gain at the mid frequency parts of the call. With a 350mm dish there will be no gain to sounds less than circa 970Hz. With a 450mm dish this drops to circa 760Hz. I think you would want the call to all be above this threshold to recreate nearness, otherwise you might get a recording that sounds off and will be hard to adjust with equalisation. I suppose the question is are you interested in shearwaters and petrels which often make pretty low frequency vocalisations, or terns and other seabirds that are generally higher frequency? I suspect that an open mic recording would be best at a shearwater colony.

I haven’t looked at all the Hi-Sound parabolas as a long time ago I invested in a Telinga parabola with Twin Science mic - basically two mono recordings. The Dodotronics parabolas are very similar so have not peaked my interest.

Thinking of parabolas, my personal preference is to have XLR connectors, as I used to get a lot of noise problems with twisting and poor contact using a minijack shotgun. This is something to think about if you want to stalk your target and may get cable movement in the process. Obviously XLR connectors would push you into considering a full sized dish with recorder, rather than interface. My solution to cable contact noise used to be to tape up connections, which generally worked, but was a little bit of a drag. If you are going to stay reasonably still whole recording and cable movement is unlikely, then perhaps the minijack connection is not a problem.

In addition, I have always been a bit troubled by stereo parabolas. Basically my reasoning is that if you follow a moving target by aiming the parabola at it, do you get a recording where the target seems to stay still and the world rotate around it? If you don’t follow a moving target then you will get a recording where the bird seems to fairly rapidly move off into the distance, which will also sound unnatural. I have never seen any other form of stereo technique where you move the mics, so having a stereo parabola seems a little strange. That said, I have recently bought a stereo Telinga mic, and think it will be great for distant static bird - a static bird in focus and a stereo ambient recording! As the mics are also very close to each other (near con-incidental) I think you can always combine the left and right channel into a mono file without any phase issues, so could convert to mono if the stereo effect sounds obviously weird.

As you are interest in seabirds, and they can be loud, one last thing to think about is whether you can use the parabola mic without the dish. I can definitely do this with the Telinga, and seem to recall seeing an image of a women researching shearwaters using a Telinga without the dish. With the HR and compact I think the mic is mounted on the internal baffle of the dish, so cannot be used stand alone. With the other full sized dishes, I think the mic pops through a hole in the dish and hence the mic can be used stand alone if you wish.

Sorry to not give a definitive answer and for so much waffle.

Cheers and best of luck with your recordings.

Jon