Juvenile Accipiter ID (1 Viewer)

[logos]

Juvenile nisus have barred bellies but spots on the breast which align to form streaks, it is the breast pattern we are discussing here. By 'every field guide' I assume you are not including the Collins guide which shows this clearly.

Spud

 

[Michael Frankis]

My Collins guide shows blackish horizontal crescentic bars on the sides of the middle/lower breast (flanks), where Sumit's photo clearly shows big round pale brown blobs. Those are what I was talking about, and there's no similarity!

This is well below the upper part of the breast, which isn't visible on this photo and wasn't what I was talking about

Michael

 

[logos]

Perhaps it would be wise to refer to the flanks when you mean the flanks rather than the breast which you did refer to! The photograph clearly does show a streaked breast and barred flanks but this is a typical pattern in many juvenile accipiters and a few adults too (i.e. Crested Goshawk and Besra)

Spud

 

[Charles Harper]

Please tread lightly gentlemen-- we lost Malvolio this way...

 

[Jane Turner]

Here is what my only desciption of Juv Chinese Sprawk has to say on the subject

"Eyes yellow. Diff to separate from Shrika, Japanese Sprawk and Besra. Important features at rest include: slate-greyish crown and sides to head contrasting with dark brown upperparts, short pale super (not extending obviously behind eye) barred thighs, relatively long primary projection, distinct chestnut tinge to neck streaks, upperpart finging and underpart markings, and four visible comple bands on uppertail (apart from dark trailing edge); undertail has three visible complete dark bands but 5 narrower ones on outer feathers."

Right now to go back and look at the bird again and check these off. I'm with you Michael..this looks nothing like any A.nisus I've ever seen

 

[Sumit]

I think the verdict veers towards juvenile Shikra (a. badius) based on a recent opinion from an asian raptor expert.
Cheers!
Sumit

 

[Jane Turner]

Eyes Yellow. Check! So does Besra, Shrika and Japanese Sprawk of course.

Slate Grey crown and sides to Head The crown looks Brown to me, which is a Besra feature as far as I can tell. Shrika woudn't have the grey cheeks

Distinct chestnut tone to neck streaks Check!

4 complete bands on tail I can only see three excluding the trailing edge, though there is room for one more. Not two more as Shrika should have. Besra has 4 too.

Well that was wildly inconclusive!

Will have a look into Besra... for my benefit as much as anything else!

 

[Sumit]

Just to add what I picked up during a long journey on this bird image. Apparently the wing to tail ratio is all wrong for a Chinese. The migrant needs longer wings to travel. It is not a a.nisus or a.gularis, that much seems certain. Leaves us with a. badius and a. virgatus. On range and other features, virgatus is weak. Leaves us with badius and the now expected "very little is known about the plumage variations of juvenile asian accipiters" as the strongest argument for badius.
Hope that does not help at all, but that's it I suppose.....

 

[Jane Turner]

The world is not full of pics of juvvy Besras!

http://worldtwitch.virtualave.net/images/Hornbuckle/Besra_Accipiter_virgatus_small.jpg

http://mampam.50megs.com/polillo/2001/Images/Birdspeciesguide/images/Accipiter virgatus tbc.jpg

 

[Jane Turner]

Sumit.

Did anyone have a serious go to prove it wasn't a Besra. From a position of Zero experience of any of the species mentioned, except Levant and Eurasian it looks like a good(ish) match

 

[Sumit]

Hi Jane,
To be honest, I'd need to find a Besra expert and there are none that I know of. Mike Hermmans had authored a paper on juv. soloensis and juv. badius. I went to him. He suggested that we have a look at Besra because he did not know the bird! The Besra is not an easy bird to locate in our parts and those who said it is not definitely a Besra have seen maybe 5-10 in a lifetime. Tring and similar are the only hope (unless I stumble upon a Besra expert by accident) and I am many dollars away from making that visit. Some kind souls had volunteered to check the feathers at Tring on their next visit . I will wait!!!!!!
Sumit

 

[Jane Turner]

I can only find descriptions of adult's tails. I was wondering if juv could have finer bands.... a lot of the other features seem to fit.

 

[Edward woodwood]

well, despite having seen a few each of Besra, Shikra, Jap Sprawk and Chinese Gos, I'd plump for one of the former two on size and proportions as Jap and Chinese always struck me as very lightweight birds. Shikra may also appear a little daintier than Besra? and this bird may be suggesting a dark mesial stripe (not retained by adult Shikra?) and have the sharper wings and fewer bars on the tail of Besra....apparently indian Shikras have rather rounded wings?..but as Spud alluded to Asian accipter id is a fair amount of guesswork at moment especially for us in U.K.

 

[Edward woodwood]

btw Sumit

there may be a paper on accipiter id in Asia in a forthcoming OBC Bulletin if I can get my act together....

 

[Sumit]

Hi Tim,
There is also a book (SE Asian raptors) on the way by Rishad Naoroji (who thinks this is a Shikra).
Also, Bombay Nat. History society (BNHS) had published a paper on Indian accipiters some years back, if memory serves me right.
Look forward to your paper.
Sumit