Nikon SE's vs Vortex Stokes DLS (??!! is this heresy?) (1 Viewer)

[rivergazer]

I have some Vortex Stokes DLS 8X42 that I got a couple of months ago from Optics4Birding, and loved them at first look. To that point, this was the only quality optics I'd ever seen; they were truly astonishing compared to the 50 year old Swifts handed down from my father, or anything else anyone had ever handed to me. My father was an avid birder, and though I had a more casual interest, learned a bit from him, but never really got into it, largely from frustration with the optics .... them dammed birds were too hard to see!!! On a personal note, I regret now not having pursued this more actively with him, missing the father/son bonding we could all use more of, and, missing the opportunity to surprise him with the gift of great optics that he must have been unaware of, or figured the good stuff was too expensive for him. Anyway (as I wipe a tear from my eye, truly), since finally taking the plunge for good optics, I've gotten "the bug", and in the last few days, had the opportunity to compare my Stokes DLS 8X42 to Nikon SE 8X32 and 10X42. My "tests" are 1) using them at my familiar birding spots, and 2) putting printed matter with small print on the wall and attempting to read it from about 15 feet, and 3) reading outdoor signage from greater distance. Total glassing time over the last 4-5 days about 12-15 hours. At times used a monopod for steadier view. After reading volumes of rave about the SE's with their legendary reputation here on BF, I was ready for (even hoped for) a jump ahead with the SE's in quality of the view. I just DON'T see it! Brightness, clarity, depth of field, in full daylight or near dark, sun at my back, sun in my eyes looking through the canopy, clear or foggy, both are so good I have to wonder why I'm obsessing about any small difference I might be able to detect. Sometimes, mostly with the printed matter or outdoor signage, the SE's give me that "wow, that's so clear" thing, but then I put up the DLS, and get pretty much the same impression, just POSSIBLY a little less so. It does seem though, that the "wow" thing happens a LITTLE more often with the SE's. The two do have a different "look", I'd call the SE's more color neutral; the DLS actually seem a little richer and slightly more vivid, and to my eyes, give a more pleasing and satisfying view; I just LIKE it a little better, not a technical quality issue I wouldn't say.

Except for some Nikon Monarchs that I tried at a local store, (these were, IMO, not in the same class as either the DLS or SE) the DLS and SE are the ONLY good optics I've experienced, so admittedly I'm a rank novice, and please forgive me if my comments seem all too sophomoric. As opposed to the great litany on the SE's, I've found very little written about the DLS, either on BF or elsewhere on the net. They're not being made anymore, as I understand, because of a marketing dispute involving an attempted power grab by Walmart (???!!!) that upset all the other Vortex dealers. Thanks again Wally. Mine were a closeout at $499, but the original MSRP was $999, above both the Vortex Razor and Viper, both of which have been praised in these pages. Is it possible that these were a "sleeper" that were not around long enough for anyone to notice?

As it turns out, as much as I love these Stokes DLS, their minimum IPD spec is 57mm (by my measurement it's at least 57.5mm), and is just a little too wide for my girlfriend, who can just BARELY get her eyes aligned within the exit pupil. On another BF thread, someone measured their Zen ED's and got 55mm (she measures 55mm; company spec is 56mm), so I have some ED2's on order, which are supposed to be shipped late July '09. The original ED's generated quite a buzz here on BF, so besides addressing the IPD thing for my beloved, I'm hoping again to see a new "WOW" come late July/early August. Anyone want to speculate on what I'll see (or NOT see, LOL)!!

Thanks, birdforum is a treasure

marty

 

[ronh]

Marty,
I looked, briefly but hard, through an 8x42 DLS, and thought it was about as good as an 8x30 Fujinon FMT-SX I compared it with. Both were excellent. That Fuji is a first class Porro, optically similar to the SE.

Go and stand in the corner now, until the ED2 arrives. That will be a binocular you can safely rave about.
Ron

 

[FrankD]

I don't think your impressions are off base at all Marty. After you spend enough time here and with a variety of optics you will realize that most of us obsess over some very small differences in optical performance...typically only seen in some very specific situations. I would be willing to bet that many "non-obsessive" people would pick up a Nikon Monarch and compare it directly to their previous high end model, the Nikon Premier LXL and conclude that the optics were the same and that the Monarch was actually "better" simply because it is more compact and lighter in physical weight.

The Stokes DLS is a fine binocular that I would not mind owning. In the grand scheme of things I am sure it compares very favorably with the Nikon SE. Something to consider though....you are comparing an 8x32 with an 8x42. The 10 mm difference in aperture size should be pretty noticeable under a variety of conditions. The fact that you see little difference between the two speaks volumnes to the optical performance of the SEs.

Just a thought. Hope this helps.

 

[rivergazer]

....you are comparing an 8x32 with an 8x42. The 10 mm difference in aperture size should be pretty noticeable under a variety of conditions. The fact that you see little difference between the two speaks volumnes to the optical performance of the SEs.

Just a thought. Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that was quite remarkable to me. The SE's were only at a disadvantage in the very dimmest (just about dark) light.

marty

 

[Kevin Purcell]

As opposed to the great litany on the SE's, I've found very little written about the DLS, either on BF or elsewhere on the net. They're not being made anymore, as I understand, because of a marketing dispute involving an attempted power grab by Walmart (???!!!) that upset all the other Vortex dealers. Thanks again Wally.

Where did you hear that?

Did Walmart even sell Vortex bins? I can imagine with the way Vortex is set up that they would be in the right place for Walmart to want to sell them.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=5178

To me it just looks like Vortex had a change of emphasis. The dropped the Stokes birding brand and focused on the main Vortex brand with hunting branding (though they still sell to birders).

Mine were a closeout at $499, but the original MSRP was $999, above both the Vortex Razor and Viper, both of which have been praised in these pages. Is it possible that these were a "sleeper" that were not around long enough for anyone to notice?

I don't that they're the same but I think your overall assessment is not far off.

I have posted on the DLS before (I think).

The DLS is a decent bin (especially for it's time). I think the retail was more like $800 (the MSRP as usual means little ... check current Vortex MSRP vs street prices). At $500 it was a good value "just below the top" bin: bright, wide FOV though with transverse CA to the outer edge of the field. Typical of it's design period. The focus speed is quite quick which seems to be a birding optimization. I like the handling and feel of the DLS: the thinner armor is a win.

I haven't ABed the DLS and the SE but I have compared the DLS to other bins that I've compared to the SE.

Optically though I'd place it below the best ED bins like the current ED "Top bins" (i.e. Leica, Swaro, Zeiss and Nikon) and the current Chinese EDs. And so that would be below the SE too. It's perhaps in the same ballpark as the Zeiss Victory 8x40 (a previous generation Top bin but perhaps not the best of them).

Stray light performance was better with the SE than the other bins I compared it with and though the DLS was good it didn't seem that good. Control of CA was better in the SE too (for a non-ED bin),

The DLS is a decent mid-range non-ED bin. Which is a vary competitive place to be.

The other issue is the difference between these very good bins are small. Especially if you haven't seen many better bins even going from "regular 20 year old junk" to a current $200 Diamondback is enough to elicit a "Wow!". Once you've had that the exclamations come rather less frequently.

It's a fine birding bin, easy to use and better than a lot of bins so enjoy what you have. I got the feeling that it could last quite a white (it feels well built).

 

[FrankD]

Maybe something to do with the Stokes name and not necessarily Vortex?

 

[rivergazer]

Where did you hear that?

Steve at Optics4Birding told me the story about the big flap that sent the Vortex dealers through the roof and led to the demise of the Stokes DLS. I never did really get it, didn't really care to, so I probably have a lot of it wrong. Pretty sure Walmart was involved though, and yes, it was the Stokes name at the heart of the dispute, I believe.

Back to the glass, I was told that it will take a while to appreciate the subtleties that set the SE's apart from the wannabe's. Either that's started happening, or, I'm just being swayed by my own insecurity in the feeling that they MUST be better, and if I'm a real man, I should see it. Did my usual outing tonight, watching some sparrows and now and then a catbird in a tree about 25 feet overhead, against a dimming blue sky, sun at my back. Again, I'm still new to this, and the view with both was just stunning, detail up the ying yang, the bird's profile and tiny feather wisps showing razor sharp against the darkening sky, but there was a transparency with the SE's that jumped (well, maybe crept) out that wasn't quite as apparent with the Vortex. It looks like my initiation is going to take a while, but for now, the SE's are going back, and I'll just go sit in a corner until the Zen ED2's arrive. Thanks to all for not suggesting that I'm not a real man!!

marty

 

[CLRobles]

Steve at Optics4Birding told me the story about the big flap that sent the Vortex dealers through the roof and led to the demise of the Stokes DLS. I never did really get it, didn't really care to, so I probably have a lot of it wrong. Pretty sure Walmart was involved though, and yes, it was the Stokes name at the heart of the dispute, I believe.

Back to the glass, I was told that it will take a while to appreciate the subtleties that set the SE's apart from the wannabe's. Either that's started happening, or, I'm just being swayed by my own insecurity in the feeling that they MUST be better, and if I'm a real man, I should see it. Did my usual outing tonight, watching some sparrows and now and then a catbird in a tree about 25 feet overhead, against a dimming blue sky, sun at my back. Again, I'm still new to this, and the view with both was just stunning, detail up the ying yang, the bird's profile and tiny feather wisps showing razor sharp against the darkening sky, but there was a transparency with the SE's that jumped (well, maybe crept) out that wasn't quite as apparent with the Vortex. It looks like my initiation is going to take a while, but for now, the SE's are going back, and I'll just go sit in a corner until the Zen ED2's arrive. Thanks to all for not suggesting that I'm not a real man!!

marty

Marty, are you saying that you purchased the SE's with a return policy that you intend to take advantage of? Are you returning them to somewhere?

 

[rivergazer]

Marty, are you saying that you purchased the SE's with a return policy that you intend to take advantage of? Are you returning them to somewhere?

Yes, Angelo Todaro in Mission Viejo CA, got acquainted with him through Ebay, but was not an Ebay sale. The 8X32's were new at $500, and the 10X42's were "as new" at $595. Both have all the original packaging & goodies. He doesn't have any listed on Ebay now, but I know he did have some more 8X42's; brand new, as mine were. If you want them before I send them back, let me know, I'm sure he'll be ok with it since they're already paid for. The 8X is serial# 550214; 10X is 002419.

 

[CLRobles]

Don't do it Marty!

I already have a pair so I don't need another but just wanted to see were you were with you SE's. I personally would keep them if I were you but that's just me. NIB SE's are getting harder and harder to find and there IS NOT a better $500 bin on the market. Let me say that again.... There IS NOT a better $500 bin on the market! There might not be a better $2000 bin on the market! I know technology has brought all the glass on the market to a point to where they all give very good images. Even in the $200 to $300 range you can get some very good views. But, there is differences and to have that kind of quality for $500 is a real bargin! So, if you are not one of the people that suffer from blackouts (which I imagine is highly over hyped?) I would hold on to those little SE's..... I bet you will regret returning them if you do....
Chuck

 

[Kevin Purcell]

If you do decide to let them go then ...

Did Horukuru get any SE's yet?

I'm pretty sure he'd be interested in at least the 8x32 ... guaranteed sale there (to Indonesia but don't worry Horukuru is very well known here!). Search for his posts for more context.

 

[CLRobles]

If you do decide to let them go then ...

Did Horukuru get any SE's yet?

I'm pretty sure he'd be interested in at least the 8x32 ... guaranteed sale there (to Indonesia but don't worry Horukuru is very well known here!). Search for his posts for more context.

I think HK is looking for 10x's but I could be wrong?

 

[elkcub]

Yes, Angelo Todaro in Mission Viejo CA, got acquainted with him through Ebay, but was not an Ebay sale. The 8X32's were new at $500, and the 10X42's were "as new" at $595. Both have all the original packaging & goodies. He doesn't have any listed on Ebay now, but I know he did have some more 8X42's; brand new, as mine were. If you want them before I send them back, let me know, I'm sure he'll be ok with it since they're already paid for. The 8X is serial# 550214; 10X is 002419.

Oh, boy, I own 8x #550276. I believe yours, like mine, comes from the latest batch, which may be the very last of the line. IMO you would be well advised to keep them. They are clearly a reference standard like few other binoculars.

Ed

 

[Kevin Purcell]

I think HK is looking for 10x's but I could be wrong?

In which case he should be buying Steve's Mooreorless's 10x42 for $375 + shipping.

If Mooreorless is reading this he should perhaps PM him ...

 

[FrankD]

I have decided to move my third pair of 8x32 SEs as well. So if anyone is interested....

Also, Angelo posts here now and then. I sold several of my Leica Trinovids to him several years ago and I occasionally see him put items up on Ebay. I almost bit on a pair of Nikon 7x35 Es that he had up there but $250 was a bit steep for my tastes.

 

[falcondude]

Steve at Optics4Birding told me the story about the big flap that sent the Vortex dealers through the roof and led to the demise of the Stokes DLS. I never did really get it, didn't really care to, so I probably have a lot of it wrong. Pretty sure Walmart was involved though, and yes, it was the Stokes name at the heart of the dispute, I believe.

Now I remembered some discounted price for Stokes on EO's website last year. Maybe the related event?

 

[rivergazer]

Now I remembered some discounted price for Stokes on EO's website last year. Maybe the related event?

Probably. I got the 3rd to last pair of 8X from O4B about mid April I think. The other two went within a few days. They still have some 10X though.

 

[Kevin Purcell]

End of Lifed product (and EOL on the brand).

Same with the Sandpiper scopes that EO is still selling at > $300 in angled model but Cameraland has the straight for $199. I suspect the replacement hasn't arrived yet.

Gotta shift that product somehow!

 

[FrankD]

I still haven't quite figured out why it is the straight model only? Did they not sell as many of the straight models initially? If it had been the angled I probably would have bit on the $200 price from Doug.

 

[Kevin Purcell]

I still haven't quite figured out why it is the straight model only? Did they not sell as many of the straight models initially? If it had been the angled I probably would have bit on the $200 price from Doug.

I think Vortex looked at the relative popularity of the two models and knew they were EOLed at some point in the future and decided to keep the popular angled scope for EO but sold the other straight scopes onto Cameraland for cheap.

EO still have it listed for $329 and it's still one of the best "lower-mid range" scopes out there. I suspect it's because it also have one of the biggest EPs of the lower end scopes!