Opticron new MM3 60 GA or used MM3 60 GA ED or Kowa TSN-501? (1 Viewer)

[Peerke]

Looking for my first spotting scope (after buying my first decent binoculars 2 weeks ago).

The new 60 GA would come with the HR2 zoom at € 449,-. The used 60 GA ED would come with a 20x and 23x ocular, and they ask € 399,-. The Kowa is € 299,-.

I am not very sensitive to CA, I think. At least my Kowa BDII 8x42 give me a very satisfying image. New to birding, don't know if I will like it, so would not want to spend too much on my first attempt.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Peter

 

[dwatsonbirder]

I think the MM3 ED is by far the best option - Opticron have good after sales support should you need it. There are plenty of threads on here about the performance of this scope, the one consideration is that the MM3 isn't waterproof, so you should check in advance for condensation or signs of moisture ingress if possible.

 

[Peerke]

Thanks, Daniel.

So I have to look carefully that there is no mold in it? Anything else I have to look at?

Peter

 

[dwatsonbirder]

I'm not entirely familiar with the MM series if I'm honest, so others can probably offer better advice. If you can remove the eyepiece, shine a torch/light source at both ends and look for any patterns on the glass.
My understanding is that the MM3 was water resistant, so provided it is used in a stay on case and dried off after exposure to moisture, it is probably fine. You also have the option to upgrade the eyepiece if you want (e.g. one of the zoom lenses) which may be an option in the future as you get to know the scope.
Something like a 60mm ED scope is the best compromise, and can be all you need - it is also a convenient size should you decide you want one of the larger objective offerings at a later stage and still require something for travel (or when you don't want to lug a big scope around).

The best advice I can give is to try them in person if possible, and choose what offers the best image and ergonomics for you!

EDIT: Also, don't forget to budget for a decent tripod - many a perfectly usable scope is ruined by inappropriate support. Ideally a tripod tall enough without having to extend the centre column is best to reduce vibrations, carbon fibre is possible. Benro, Manfrotto, Velbon, Novoflex all offer good value for money.

Hope this helps.

 

[Peerke]

Thanks Daniel,

Big help. I will go and have a look tomorrow.

Peter

 

[dwatsonbirder]

Most welcome, good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[jring]

Hi Peter,

another vote for the MM 60 ED, provided it checks out... 60 mm aperture can be used as your only scope while 50 mm like on the Kowa is usually only a lightweight option along sth larger. You might want to sell off one of the two EPs coming with it as 20x and 23x are not really a lot different and get either a zoom (SDLv2,3,4 are all very nice, HDF is also good but not waterproof) or a fixed mag wide angle EP in the 30-45x range...

You should check the mechanics (focus drive should be smooth from minimum focus distance to beyond infinity), tripod mount (thread should be ok and tripod head should sit firm when the screw is tightened) and the rest of the body (the MM3 doesn't seem to have a retractable lens hood).
Also you should check the view at all possible magnifications - in your case with 20x and 23x EPs both should of course deliver a bright and crisp image. At 60x things might look different...

As for looking for fungus or other internal problems... first observe a well lit white piece of paper at close range so all the image circle is white. If it isn't, move around a bit and hope it was just some shadow... if you really see dark spots or larger darker areas which stay on their position when the scope is moved a bit, sth is seriously wrong.

You might unscrew and turn the EP a few degrees and check if the spots move along - in that case the problem is in the EP and the other EP might be ok... if you're lucky, it's just something on the front element of the EP and can be cleaned ot blown away (if you have a lens brush and or blower, take it)

If the darker areas (sharp dark spots should always be in or very close to the focal plane just behind the front element of the EP) don't move when the EP is turned a bit, there is probably sth on or inside the prism system or the protective glass (if present). If you're lucky, it's just on the outside and can be cleaned.

You can use a flashlight to look for dirt, fungus or other problems inside the EPs and body... things you absolutely don't want, are any problems close to the focal plane (usually just behind the front element of the EP - that's the lens on opposite end of the eyelens..,), as these will most probably be visible when using the instrument. You also don't want anything larger than tiny round dots and/or asymmetric things inside, that are not obviously a speck of dust.

Tiny round dots on the inside optical surfaces of the instrument are usually gassed out and then re-condensed lubricants and no big deal - you might use them as a bit of leverage in the negotiations - they won't affect the view unless it's really hazy areas.

If the imperfections look like feathers or ice or snow crystals, they migth be fungus and thus might get worse... don't get a scope with these!

Larger asymmetric imperfections might be lens or coating defects and I would probably want to check with a higher magnification EP if these are visible then before buying... at a significant discount...

Joachim

 

[Peerke]

Hi Joachim,

Thank you for your detailed response.
In itself, the offered MM3 60 ED should be good. This is for sale in a store, and is supposed to be checked by them. It is a reliable store, but I will check it with your tips in my mind.

After reading your contributions, and also other forum members, I started looking at the Opticron scopes. The MM3 60 GA is already well received, but I see little of the MM3 60 ED and certainly no comparison between this older one and the current version. I will take your and Daniel's advice and go for this older ED version. Tomorrow I'll call if it's still for sale in the store. The shorter range is not so bad in itself. For the time being, with this gloomy weather, I am not going to take it on long walks. The zoom will come this spring, I think.

I was looking at the Kowa because my BDII 8x42 binoculars are to my liking. Sharp, clear and bright enough (even in this weather). The small size and weight attracted me, but it has limitations.

Thanks,
Peter

PS. I just checked. The store won't be open until Thursday, so I have to wait until next year 🫣

 

[jring]

Hi Peter,

the Kowa 501 is by no means bad, when I tested one example on an astro convention, I was surprised in a positive way. Even at the max 40x the image was not bad, albeit a bit dark on the overcast day (luckily it was the last one and the night before had been still mostly clear).
Kowa did well here and pushed right to the limit of the achromatic objective which start to suffer from longitudinal CA beyond 35 to 40x in those very fast variants which we have in spotters (and since the 501 only has a 50mm objective, 40x is still ok here - probably would start to get a bit soft on an equally fast 80mm model).

By the way, there's two kinds of CA, the lateral or transversal CA which is the blue/yellow fringing that you said you were not so sensitive to (and is in telescopes mostly caused by imperfections and construction of the EP and is usually observed far from axis) and axial or longitudinal CA, which is the type we get in plain glass achromats beyond 35-40x.
The latter means the different colors come to focus at different focal planes even on axis (an achromatic double only manages to get two wavelengths to the same focal plane - for better correction you need more lenses like in a triplet or quadruplet apochromat) - and this means that the image is starting to get soft first and fuzzy later...

They also limited themselves to a 2x zoom drive from 20x to 40x, so even though it's by no means a wide angle zoom, it is not quite as constricted on the low end as old style 3x zoom with a <35 deg afov at the low end...

With a good example of the ED version you can expect to get a crisp image at the maximum of the Opticron zoom EPs around 50x - in good light and good seeing...

Joachim

 

[Peerke]

Thanks again Joachim.

The shop do have Kowa scopes too, but as far as I can see now, only the more expensive ones. Perhaps they do have a 501 and I can compare it with the Opticon. They don't have Opticon in their product range normally, only this used one. They do have all the big (and expensive) European top of the market brands, even one I never heard of before: Kahles (Austrian binoculars, also expensive, not sure they are top).

I have to wait until Thursday, when the shop will be open again.

Keep you guys posted.

Peter

 

[jring]

Hi,

Kahles is a brand of Swarovski aimed at those with some pastimes involving guns which are off-topic here... they have a few binoculars but not much else of use for birders... the few bins are not bad... and look a lot like Swaro SLC neu...

Joachim

 

[Peerke]

Hi,

Ah clear on the Kahles brand.

Last night I tried to find a webshop (here in the Netherlands or within the EU) for Opticron, but they seem almost invisible, at least for eyepieces or anything else than a complete scope. Even their UK website is not offering online purchases (they say they do, but I can't find a way to put items in the basket).

Furthermore, I believe their website is not getting much attention. In 2024 Opticron has placed one (1) news item (holiday opening hours). They are probably choosing for other ways, like facebook, to make their presence known to the world, but I am too old for that.

A bit strange, but it could be typical in this kind of business. I am new to this wonderful world.

Peter

 

[jring]

Hi Peter,

interesting, the Opticron website does not allow me to place items in the basket either... it seems like the e-commerce system is down longer than Dec 29th 4pm (as promised in the Holiday Season announcement). You might try to order from an EU dealer... no customs duties and taxes that way...

They did introduce new products earlier this year and they are on the site... but no date on those pages.

Joachim

 

[Peerke]

Hi Joachim,

Well, good to know I am not the only one not able to put items in the basket. Somebody forgot to switch the e-commerce on. I hope they had a nice Christmas party 🧑‍🎄.

I can't find EU dealers with a webshop selling eyepieces, but okay, I will wait. There is a dealership "nearby" (30 minutes car drive), so I always can order there I guess.

Can you recommend smartphone holders for digiscoping? Is the USM-2 any good, or is something like the Tridapter from Move Shoot Move a better option?

Later I think I would like to use my camera's for digiscoping, but I am doubting a bit.
I have 2 DSLR camera's (Canon 7d and 6d mk II), but digiscoping with a DSLR seems difficult to me because of the moving mirror when taking a picture. Of caurse I can use the "live view" mode I guess. I have to dig in deeper and try some digiscoping with smartphone first.

Have a nice New Years Eve. Happy 2025 to all.

Peter

 

[Peerke]

Picked up the MM3 60 ED. Looked really well in the shop, no spots or dots, no fungus and I have warranty. Eyepieces that were included are the 40810 HDF T 17x on this scope and the 40831 HDF T 23 x on this scope. I think they are fine for now. Will keep my eyes open for a zoom, though.

Can't wait until tomorrow. Weather will be a bit better than the last month and we probably will see some sun.

 

[dwatsonbirder]

Enjoy, a fine choice!

 

[jring]

Hi,

enjoy your scope! Btw, Opticron seems to have found the On Button for their E-Commerce system again...

Joachim

 

[Peerke]

Hi,

enjoy your scope! Btw, Opticron seems to have found the On Button for their E-Commerce system again...

Joachim

Hi Joachim,

Yes, I received an email from their commercial department. They were closed for the holidays. I could use their webshop, but they prefer me to go to a dealer in the Netherlands. I can understand that, but the dealers they have over here don't have very good webshops. But there is a dealer at 30-40 minutes car drive from my house. I can always visit the home page of Opticron and email the dealer. A bit more work and of course I don't know the price until I get an answer. It is what it is.

Thanks for your advice and help.

Peter

 

[Peerke]

Enjoy, a fine choice!

Thanks Daniel. Good advice.

Peter

 

[Peerke]

As a complete newby in the world of binoculars and spotting scopes, I can't compare and judge on the quality of my gear. Up to now my Kowa BDII 8x42 and my Opticron MM3 60 ED do impress me.

I tried some "digiscoping" yesterday, just holding my phone in front of the scope when a blue tit came along. I know things can be much better, but to me this is very encouraging.