Possible Black throated thrush X Red throated thrush hybrid ? Jammu and Kashmir . (1 Viewer)

[Sayib Khaliq]

Location : Kishtawar, Jammu and Kashmir , India
Date : 27 February 2019

Hello everyone!

I need input regarding this bird uploaded on Oriental bird images ( not my own upload). Basically, I am writing a manuscript regarding first photographed red throated thrush from J&K for a bird journal. The reviewer asked me to get expert opinion regarding this individual.I have contacted some experts but there is no consensus so far. Therefore I want to get some more opinions. The rufous shades in throat and supercilium point towards a hybrid , however could a pure Black throated thrush be really ruled out?
Would be looking forward to your opinions .
Thanks in advance !
Here is the link:

Oriental Bird Club Image Database : Black-throated Thrush » Turdus atrogularis

 

[Grahame Walbridge]

Rufous tones to throat and superlium + breast feathers not really black enough, though not as obvious as many individuals are, nonetheless, clear indications of hybrid origin IMHO.

A similarly subtle individual from Kazakhstan Hybrid (Black-throated x Red-throated) Thrush (Turdus (atrogularis x ruficollis)). Birds of Kazakhstan.

Sayib, such subtle individuals may be the result of historic gene flow and it will always be a matter of opinion as to whether you treat them as hybrids or not. Expert opinion is divided which probably explains the lack of consensus concerning this individual.

Grahame

 

[Sayib Khaliq]

Rufous tones to throat and superlium + breast feathers not really black enough, though not as obvious as many individuals are, nonetheless, clear indications of hybrid origin IMHO.

A similarly subtle individual from Kazakhstan Hybrid (Black-throated x Red-throated) Thrush (Turdus (atrogularis x ruficollis)). Birds of Kazakhstan.

Sayib, such subtle individuals may be the result of historic gene flow and it will always be a matter of opinion as to whether you treat them as hybrids or not. Expert opinion is divided which probably explains the lack of consensus concerning this individual.

Grahame

Thanks a lot Grahame for this insightful answer.

 

[Brian J Small]

As Grahame has said, such subtle hues are hard to judge from photos. The first thing to do is make sure the pic does not have any artefacts, which yours does: it is an overall, subtle mustard- or brownish yellow.

If I understand you correctly, you are asking if this might be a Red-throated Thrush with a lot of black on its breast? Even on the corrected image (see attached) the rufous hue to the supercilium and throat is present, which may confirm some R-t genes, but I would suggest that the black breast shield is outside what you might expect for Black-throated.

The other issue is that from this single photo, it is hard to see other areas that can help - remiges and rectrices.

IMHO this is more a Black-throated Thrush than Red-throated and certainly not acceptable as a first for your region.

Brian

 

[Sayib Khaliq]

As Grahame has said, such subtle hues are hard to judge from photos. The first thing to do is make sure the pic does not have any artefacts, which yours does: it is an overall, subtle mustard- or brownish yellow.

If I understand you correctly, you are asking if this might be a Red-throated Thrush with a lot of black on its breast? Even on the corrected image (see attached) the rufous hue to the supercilium and throat is present, which may confirm some R-t genes, but I would suggest that the black breast shield is outside what you might expect for Black-throated.

The other issue is that from this single photo, it is hard to see other areas that can help - remiges and rectrices.

IMHO this is more a Black-throated Thrush than Red-throated and certainly not acceptable as a first for your region.

Brian

Thank you so much Brian for this detailed reply. However, I see that I have been a bit unclear in my original post. The individual for which I am claiming the first photographic evidence from Kashmir is not this one.But this one:

The reviewer of the journal has accepted this record. But in writing the monograph, a discussion about its possible presence in the surrounding areas is required and the reviewer asked for some comments regarding the individual for which I provided the link in the OP, which he pointed could be a possible hybrid Red throated X Black throated. As can be observed, the updloader has put it down as a Black throated thrush. So , if it is a hybrid , it needs to be mentioned in the monograph.
I understand then you also consider the thrush in the original post as a hybrid and not pure Black throated?
Thanks again!