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Presumed hybrid Red-breasted Goose x Greater White-fronted Goose (1 Viewer)

T

troelseskeortvad

Member
Presumed hybrid Red-breasted Goose x Greater White-fronted Goose in the Western Baltic Sea, Oct. 29, 2021.

On a bird survey in the Baltic Sea off Bornholm, Denmark, we observed a goose on SW migration that we presume to be a Red-breasted Goose x Greater White-fronted Goose hybrid.

It passed out boat at less than 100m distance in a flock of white-fronts. We got some photos, but from the back only. As can be seen, it had a uniform dark brown plumage, lacking black areas, short thick neck and head and short bill. On the side of the head/neck it showed a pale ring, very much reminiscent of Red-breasted Goose, not showing well on the photos, unfortunately. We are not sure, if it showed pale at base of bill, which the photos indicate. It was only slightly smaller than the Greater White-fronts, thus quite a lot bigger than Red-breasted Goose.

On the collage, the top and bottom goose is a Greater White-fronted.hybrid red-breasted goose-roenne banke-291021.JPGIMG_1715 (3).JPG

Comment very much appreciated:)

In case a similar-looking goose is found, or have been observed somewhere else, I will be very pleased to know too..

Cheers

Troels
 
I can't tell which bird is being referred to here. Very difficult to conclude anything much about the plumage of any of these birds as the light seems to be low and warm, and dark areas on the plumage appear to be caused more by shadow than by actually being dark.
 
Butty said:
I can't tell which bird is being referred to here. Very difficult to conclude anything much about the plumage of any of these birds as the light seems to be low and warm, and dark areas on the plumage appear to be caused more by shadow than by actually being dark.
Click to expand...
Hi Butty, you are absolutely right in that the light is very low. But, please see the colors on the Greated White-fronts for reference! As stated, on the collage, the top an bottom individual is Greater White-front - the rest is the hybrid:) The other pic is more clear, I hope...
 
Hello,
welcome to birdforum!
While I agree with Butty, that picture quality might well alter features and impression of this bird, I assume the following:
You and others observed a strange/unusual Goose among a migrating flock of Greater White-fronted Geese and you took your best effort to document this bird. Then a sketch/painting of your bird might well be helpful here.

And I want to thank you, that you joined this forum to post this strange looking bird. I cant add anything useful here, I only had the same thoughts as Butty (no offense) and like you I wait/hope for others (including Jörn) to jump in.

And maybe MacNara (or someone else) finds the time to improve thiese pictures. You might well be positively surprised, I was before.

Welcome to birdforum again!
 
Hi, I received some photos of this bird privately , but also there the photos do not allow an identification. A description by one observer, not the photographer, was that it had a head pattern like redbreasted goose
The problem is that no redbreasted goose hybrid I know of would show that, so this may have been in error due to difficult lighting conditons

here is a hybrid redbreasted x greater whitefront
https://flic.kr/p/dQ5AdF
 
Dear all

Thanks a lot for the replies so far! My apologis for the less the ideal pics, but, this was all we got...

Great to see your comment, Joern! I heard that my colleague had presented the pics to an "expert" and I wondered if it was you😊

Unfortunately, I can´t supply you with a sketch, since none was produced. With regard to the exact markings in the head/neck, I can personally only say it had a pale marking which was very much reminiscent of the marking of a Red-breasted, - to the extent that my co-observer was rather convinced it had to be a Red-breasted until we examined the pics some 10 minutes after the obs.

With regard to the appearance of this type of hybrid, it seems to vary to some extent. I would say, our bird was rather more similar to an individual from Hungary than to the one from Üfingen (Lower Saxony, Germany), 26th January 2013, that you refer to, Joern.

I identified it and called it as a Red-breasted Goose hybrid straight away, in the field, and suppose photos supports this. As for the other parrent species, Greater White-fronted seems to be the best fit, I suppose, and also it was in companion with this species.

https://flic.kr/p/Bh9Ept

Cheers
troels
 
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Hi @Joern, the individual you link to seems to be rather similar to this one from Lithuania, beside from e.g. less pale by the base of the bill. I cant access photo online, perhaps the originals are not up on flickr anymore? So, for the our bird to appear very Red-breasted goose-like in the field, with regards to head markings, I suppose, in fact, is must have had more pale on the side of the neck than the one I paste in above....which is perhaps also more in line with the "less than perfect" pics:)1637674455433.png
 
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But, agree, none of the RBG x GWFG hybrids I could find online, has more clear RBG like markings than the one pasted above. And, just to clarify a bit: Perhaps, I overemphasize its resembles to RBG, as should also be clear from the pics: I noted pale marking on the side neck and head where RBG show pale/red, which, together with its structure, made the RBG hybrid call quite straight foreward in the situation,- as opposed to RBG x Barnacle hybrids, showing a Barnacle-like head pattern and typically a black neck. It likely had some sort of pale ring too, as my collegue reported, that I did not note personally; I reached out for the camera. Over and out:)
 
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Yes, the Lithuanian bird was very similar to the one I observed ... This is discussed in the attached document on redbreasted goose hybrids, Unfortunately it is in German, but there are the photos of hybrids redbreasted x whitefront, redbreasted x barnacle and redbreased x brent
 

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Thanks a lot for the paper, Jörn. Looks great, I am excited to give it a read! An "online translation" to English is attached, as my german is quite rusty unfortunately.
 

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Hi Jörn and all

I read with great interest your paper on Red-breasted Goose hybrids, Jörn. Very clear and convincing. I have to say, it only made me even more convinced of the provenance of this individual, but I can´t blame anyone for not putting a name on it based on the “from the back” photos in low lights, of course.

For instance, RBG x Brent might not show a tail projecting well beyond the feet as in this individual (as far as I can see). Also, the neck markings of (the single know?) RBG x Brent is quite a lot different to this bird. The general size of this individual is also a bit bigger than what would be expected from a RBG x Brent, I suppose.

Besides from the generel colors and pale markings in the neck/head, which I believe fit RBG x GWFG perfectly, and safely rules out any RBG x Barnacle, the shape of the head, neck and bill speaks strongly in favor of Red-breasted provenance, I should think. But, please do let me know in case you know of any goose hybrid remotely similar to this one, which is not a RBG x GWFG?!

Since the pics I uploaded was un-edited, I upload a few pics I have brightened. It is mainly to try to see the color of the feets and legs. Although it is not very clear at all, it seems to me to show none black legs/feets as should be expected from a RBG x GWFG, - or perhaps is it just my keen eyes.. :)

I will be happy to forward original pics if anyone is interested.

Cheers, and thanks a lot for the feedback!!
Troels
 

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Well you have seen the bird , but from the photos it is not identifiable!

I think for example, a hybrid GWFG x Barnacle or LWFG x Barnacle could be another possible option from the photos alone. These birds can be quite variable in coloration and size, the following example showing coloration differences :

Hybrid White-Fronted x Barnacle Goose? (Netherlands, Oct 17 2020)

Hello, Yesterday I saw these three Geese (meadows, Edam, North-Holland, near IJsselmeer / vicinity of Amsterdam). Obviously hybrids. They were in the midst of a great many Greater White-Fronted and Greylags. Two birds were quite identical (white heads) and one had a more brownish head (with...
www.birdforum.net www.birdforum.net

But the description i got by email (mentioned before) , that one observer said it had a head pattern like redbreasted goose, is absolutely not comprehensible for me ...
 
Joern Lehmhus said:
Well you have seen the bird , but from the photos it is not identifiable!

I think for example, a hybrid GWFG x Barnacle or LWFG x Barnacle could be another possible option from the photos alone. These birds can be quite variable in coloration and size, the following example showing coloration differences :

Hybrid White-Fronted x Barnacle Goose? (Netherlands, Oct 17 2020)

Hello, Yesterday I saw these three Geese (meadows, Edam, North-Holland, near IJsselmeer / vicinity of Amsterdam). Obviously hybrids. They were in the midst of a great many Greater White-Fronted and Greylags. Two birds were quite identical (white heads) and one had a more brownish head (with...
www.birdforum.net www.birdforum.net

But the description i got by email (mentioned before) , that one observer said it had a head pattern like redbreasted goose, is absolutely not comprehensible for me ...
Click to expand...

Joern Lehmhus said:
Well you have seen the bird , but from the photos it is not identifiable!

I think for example, a hybrid GWFG x Barnacle or LWFG x Barnacle could be another possible option from the photos alone. These birds can be quite variable in coloration and size, the following example showing coloration differences :

Hybrid White-Fronted x Barnacle Goose? (Netherlands, Oct 17 2020)

Hello, Yesterday I saw these three Geese (meadows, Edam, North-Holland, near IJsselmeer / vicinity of Amsterdam). Obviously hybrids. They were in the midst of a great many Greater White-Fronted and Greylags. Two birds were quite identical (white heads) and one had a more brownish head (with...
www.birdforum.net www.birdforum.net

But the description i got by email (mentioned before) , that one observer said it had a head pattern like redbreasted goose, is absolutely not comprehensible for me ...
Click to expand...

Joern Lehmhus said:
Well you have seen the bird , but from the photos it is not identifiable!

I think for example, a hybrid GWFG x Barnacle or LWFG x Barnacle could be another possible option from the photos alone. These birds can be quite variable in coloration and size, the following example showing coloration differences :

Hybrid White-Fronted x Barnacle Goose? (Netherlands, Oct 17 2020)

Hello, Yesterday I saw these three Geese (meadows, Edam, North-Holland, near IJsselmeer / vicinity of Amsterdam). Obviously hybrids. They were in the midst of a great many Greater White-Fronted and Greylags. Two birds were quite identical (white heads) and one had a more brownish head (with...
www.birdforum.net www.birdforum.net

But the description i got by email (mentioned before) , that one observer said it had a head pattern like redbreasted goose, is absolutely not comprehensible for me ...
Click to expand...
Hi Jörn

Thanks a lot for the feedback, again!:)

As for GWFG and LWFG x Barnacle, I believe it is worth noting the blackish underving coversts (sorry for not stressing this before. They were very apparent in the field and the first thing I noted on the bird!). To my knowledge, most/all? GWFG and LWFG x Barnacle show shades os grey underwing coverts, thus rather paler than here... Have you come across any with blackish underwing coverts? With regards to the head, it was indeed very much different from any Barnacle hybrid as it did not show pale in the face as would be expected from these. Also, GWFG and LWFG x Barnacle typically show black neck or at least contrast between belly and neck. Hence, we were very much convinced Barnacle was not a parent species; I suppose this is just about visible from the pics (pale marking upper neck/lower head), but with respect to the front of the face, you just have to trust us :). The proportions of the neck, head and bill was also very much Red-brested-like, as the pics also indicate, I suppose, hence ruling out GWFG x Barmacle, I suppose...
(there is quite a lot for Barnacle x LWFs on desplay artsportalen.se, by the way:)

Cheers
troels
 
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I agree that most GWFG and LWFG x Barnacle show shades os grey underwing coverts, but occasionally there are some birds which are extremely dark also there - also, in the very dark birds of these crosses the contrast between breast and flanks can be very much reduced.

Please note that I am not saying you are wrong with the identification of the bird you observed - it is only that from the photos a safe identifcation doesn´t seem possible. But also there is nothing that clearly excludes this cross!

I know some of the photos at Artportalen , yes. there is a good collection of LWFG x Barnacle due to the reintroduction programme with barnacle goose as foster parents ; but also some other interesting crosses are there.
 
Joern Lehmhus said:
I agree that most GWFG and LWFG x Barnacle show shades os grey underwing coverts, but occasionally there are some birds which are extremely dark also there - also, in the very dark birds of these crosses the contrast between breast and flanks can be very much reduced.

Please note that I am not saying you are wrong with the identification of the bird you observed - it is only that from the photos a safe identifcation doesn´t seem possible. But also there is nothing that clearly excludes this cross!

I know some of the photos at Artportalen , yes. there is a good collection of LWFG x Barnacle due to the reintroduction programme with barnacle goose as foster parents ; but also some other interesting crosses are there.
Click to expand...
Hi, I searched around the web, but cant seem to find white-fronted x Barnacle with blackish underwings, which is perhaps also not to be expected. I paste an example of a lesser white-fronted x Barnacle from the very dark end, showing grey underwing coverts and ancillaries. This individual has the darkest underwing I have come across. With regards to the pattern of the belly-breast-neck, it seems even the darkest individual still show at least some pale in the belly, along with the black neck (very rarely partly black). The color of the breast varies, but is typically somewhere in between. With regard to the face, white-fronted x Barnacle, as far as I can see, either show a pattern ghosting Barnacle or have a lot of white in the face, in a few cases.
I can´t say, I have seen nearly every picture of the white-fronted x Barnacle, and even if I did, this would not be same as knowing the full extent of the variation, of course. Naturally, the same goes for RBG x GWFG where the "sample size" is still very small.
 

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Yes, Currently I find no really good photos of such hybrids Lesser whitefront x Barnacle , only this

But as I said it is not common, commoner is what you described with at least some contrast, but it can be weak

The same applies to Greater whitefront x barnacle (a hybrid not always separable from LWFG x barnacle), here is one with rather weak contrast.

Any bird where you could have a chance for an unifomly dark appearing underwing of either of these crosses must be one of those extremely dark ones with excess melanin like these.

also this is in part affected by lighting- where there is a weak contrast in full sun there may be none in shadow

Therefore for me a whole dark appearing underwing would not necessarily exclude a barnacle x whitefront hybrid.
 
Joern Lehmhus said:
Yes, Currently I find no really good photos of such hybrids Lesser whitefront x Barnacle , only this

But as I said it is not common, commoner is what you described with at least some contrast, but it can be weak

The same applies to Greater whitefront x barnacle (a hybrid not always separable from LWFG x barnacle), here is one with rather weak contrast.

Any bird where you could have a chance for an unifomly dark appearing underwing of either of these crosses must be one of those extremely dark ones with excess melanin like these.

also this is in part affected by lighting- where there is a weak contrast in full sun there may be none in shadow

Therefore for me a whole dark appearing underwing would not necessarily exclude a barnacle x whitefront hybrid.
Click to expand...


Thanks a lot for links! I haven’t seen those pics before.

Indeed, LWFG x Barnacle can be extremely dark,- also a few cases out of many in the gallery on Artsportalen.se. And, as can be seen in first of your links, very dark underwing covers and dark belly also do not exclude an extremely dark LWFG x Barnacle, in itself, unfortunately.

Features from RBG in RBG x white-fronts is generally sparse. Some, like the one you observed, show head ghosting Red-breasted. And, in one case I have come across a pale breast band was present.

Greater White-fronted Goose x Red-breasted Goose, Italy 03/01/2019 - YouTube

In another case (link below), a ring-like marking in the head is present, as my co-observers described, - if LWFG x Barnacle can be ruled out in this case? (Although not identical to the one we observed..)


Others are more uniform, in which cases a lack of features from other species, especially Barnacle, is essential, I suppose, in combination with structure. But the thickness of the neck and head also seem to vary to some degree and perhaps not much different from LWFG x Barnacle in some…

With regard to our bird, it failed (also in pics) to show head features in line with LWFG x Barnacle to my knowledge. But, I agree it is wise to be cautious and I certainly can´t blame anyone for not putting a name in it who didn’t see it.
 
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