What's Tickable? (1 Viewer)

[Samuel Perfect]

I'm still in confusion over some birds which I can tick on the British list, can anyone help?:
Ring-necked Parakeet
Rock Dove/Feral Pigeon (it is my belief that only the wild Rock Doves of the Scottish coast are genuine birds that can be ticked)
White Wagtail (in my opinion still a subspecies but are there plans afoot to split it?)
Isabelline Shrike instead of the subspecies Daurian Shrike,
I would be grateful for any opinions or scientific fact on the subject,
Thanks,
Samuel

 

[knotsbirder]

I'm still in confusion over some birds which I can tick on the British list, can anyone help?:
Ring-necked Parakeet
Stock Dove/Feral Pigeon (it is my belief that only the wild Rock Doves of the Scottish coast are genuine birds that can be ticked)
White Wagtail (in my opinion still a subspecies but are there plans afoot to split it?)
Isabelline Shrike instead of the subspecies Daurian Shrike,
I would be grateful for any opinions or scientific fact on the subject,
Thanks,
Samuel

Ring-necked Parakeet yes (under cat C)
Stock Dove yes
Rock Dove technically yes but I understand your reasoning and of course you can choose what to tick/not to tick
And on the other two I'd just tick Pied Wag And Isabelline Shrike

 

[Robin Edwards]

Samuel,

The question is, how seriously do you want to be in terms of listing birds seen?

It may be useful for you to reference the BOURC list of birds that can be viewed on Birdguides :- http://www.birdguides.com/species/default.asp

Category A-C are applicable with any species labelled as D or E being considered unacceptable. To be honest - tick what makes you happy and enjoy the birds.

Where specific sub-species have been seen, it is prefered to refer to the parent species as knotsbirder illustrates for the Daurian Shrike.

Regards
Robin

 

[davercox]

I would be grateful for any opinions or scientific fact on the subject

Samuel

Forget science, it has nothing to do with it. Decide for yourself what criteria you want to follow. If (in Britain) it's the BOU list then the advice above is right.

Hope you enjoy whatever you do.

 

[Farnboro John]

Its only recently that the BOURC has deigned to notice the hundreds of thousands of Feral Pigeons (= Rock Dove, taxonomically) so that you can now year-tick any plastic monster you see anywhere. While from an aesthetic or conservation point of view pure Rock Doves are INFINITELY preferable, frankly it was not sensible to pretend the multitudes of yuckies didn't exist.

Stock Dove is a different species.

John

 

[Twite]

If you see a feral pigeon in Trafalgar Square that is indistinguishable from a rock dove you would expect to see at the Scottish coast, why would you not tick it? Who's to say the bird concerned didn't come from the coast in the first place. Admittedly there is some satisfaction in seeing them in a truly wild setting.

Twite.

 

[Steve Lister]

With Ring-necked Parakeet you have to be a bit careful where you tick them. Category C populations are reckoned not to disperse very much (see fairly recent discussion on the Norfolk birding thread) so if you saw one in say leicestershire, where you are miles away from any Cat C parakeets, it would be much more likely to be an escape. Indeed RNP is not officially on the Leics county list.

But unless you are going to publicly compare your list with other birders it is entirely up to you.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Steve Babbs]

If you see a feral pigeon in Trafalgar Square that is indistinguishable from a rock dove you would expect to see at the Scottish coast, why would you not tick it? Who's to say the bird concerned didn't come from the coast in the first place. Admittedly there is some satisfaction in seeing them in a truly wild setting.

Twite.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that one of the few remaining birds on the Scottish coast didn't get up and fly hundreds of miles to London. However, logically feral pigeon is 'countable' under category C. I couldn't bring myself to tick one though and waited until I'd seen a wild rock dove. Personally I go for not counting C species if it's also on A. By the same logic I don't count feral species at all on my world list (or I didn't before I gave up keeping one). Which does mean I really need to see a wild Canada goose in the UK soon.

 

[davercox]

Forget science, it has nothing to do with it./QUOTE]

Trying a slightly more measured response this time ...

You are asking two different questions really :

1) what are "genuinely wild" birds that you can tick ? see the responses re RR Parakeet and Feral Pigeon; if you want to be ultra-strict about it then only "Category A" birds on the British List should count; but you will notice this means omitting some surprising birds like Pheasant and Capercaillie;

2) which are "only sub-species that do not count" ? here science does have something to do with it but there is no universally-agreed list, and never will be, while science continues to progress (or at least change); it's always a good idea to note identifiable sub-species when you can, not only is it interesting in its own right but it may help if they ever are split.
(I'm not aware that a Pied/White Wagtail split is on the cards.)

Hope this helps ... maybe not ...

 

[Twite]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that one of the few remaining birds on the Scottish coast didn't get up and fly hundreds of miles to London.

That's just pedantic. Insert Aberdeen...nearest city etc. :C

Twite.

 

[Samuel Perfect]

Thanks for all your views, to be honest this additional information has made me even more uncertain of what I should tick but I think it probably safest to stick to the BOU list, thanks again,
Samuel

 

[Mysticete]

or even more likely, how can you be sure some of the coastal birds are not descended from urban birds. Rock Pigeons have some pretty impressive dispersal abilities

 

[Farnboro John]

Coming back to Rock Dove/Feral Pigeon, I don't write Rock Dove in my notebook unless I am in Northern/Western Scotland (including islands) and the flock is at least 95% composed of apparently pure Rock Doves. This requires a flock of at least 20 birds.

Excluding Category C species will also exclude Little Owl, Mute Swan, Pheasant, Red-legged Partridge and several other common and well-established species. BOU has no problem including Category C species as an integral part of the British List and nor should birders.

John

 

[davercox]

Excluding Category C species will also exclude Little Owl, Mute Swan

... Mute Swan is in Category A despite the widely-held theory that it was introduced in the Iron Age / by the Romans / by the Normans / delete where applicable

 

[wolfbirder]

The BOU list is retained for scientific reasons, and many swear and live and die by it. Nothing wrong with that. But likewise you choose your own criteria, & you may choose to keep different lists.

There are so many contradictions and questions raised at times that even trusted authorities cannot know, so it is all on balance of opinion anyway. Of course the trusted authoriities are made up of people who are 'more likely' to make a better decision.

I have asked my self so many questions over the years, and still do -

Ship-assistence - how many apparently tickable birds are actually ship-assisted and fed? No one can know .e.g the Prawle House Finch, or the recent Scarlet Tanagers

Should you tick wild-born Eagle Owls juveniles from the Dunsop Bridge birds?

Should Wagtails or Redpolls or Crossbills be split, scientific research 'perhaps' suggests not, but sometimes it takes hundreds of years for differences to emerge, even when we now know they breed sympatrically? Should I count Two-Barred Greenish Warbler or Black-eared Kite as seperate species?

Should you count Quail based only on hearing it?

Should you count the Radipole Lake Hoody as BBRC suggest ok to make only mind up as provenance unknown, even tho they say Cat E?

Are certain Buffleheads, Fudge Ducks, Ruddy Shelduck, White-Headed Ducks, Falcated Ducks, or White Storks wild or escapes?

Birding at times is very difficult? No one can really tell you the definitive answers to the above, but they can tell you what the authorities decided.

 

[Brian Stretch]

Coming back to Rock Dove/Feral Pigeon, I don't write Rock Dove in my notebook unless I am in Northern/Western Scotland (including islands) and the flock is at least 95% composed of apparently pure Rock Doves. This requires a flock of at least 20 birds.

Excluding Category C species will also exclude Little Owl, Mute Swan, Pheasant, Red-legged Partridge and several other common and well-established species. BOU has no problem including Category C species as an integral part of the British List and nor should birders.

John

The discrepancy between Category C species for me is that Pheasants and Red-legged Partridges are released in their millions each year whereas Little Owls are clearly not.

Brian
___________
Birding Today

 

[Farnboro John]

The discrepancy between Category C species for me is that Pheasants and Red-legged Partridges are released in their millions each year whereas Little Owls are clearly not.

Brian
___________
Birding Today

Yes but be assured there are breeding Red-legs where clearly shooters don't go (e.g. Landguard) and the same goes for Pheasants. I wouldn't worry too much about that.

John

 

[Farnboro John]

The BOU list is retained for scientific reasons, and many swear and live and die by it. Nothing wrong with that. But likewise you choose your own criteria, & you may choose to keep different lists.

There are so many contradictions and questions raised at times that even trusted authorities cannot know, so it is all on balance of opinion anyway. Of course the trusted authoriities are made up of people who are 'more likely' to make a better decision.

I have asked my self so many questions over the years, and still do -

Ship-assistence - how many apparently tickable birds are actually ship-assisted and fed? No one can know .e.g the Prawle House Finch, or the recent Scarlet Tanagers

Should you tick wild-born Eagle Owls juveniles from the Dunsop Bridge birds?

Should Wagtails or Redpolls or Crossbills be split, scientific research 'perhaps' suggests not, but sometimes it takes hundreds of years for differences to emerge, even when we now know they breed sympatrically? Should I count Two-Barred Greenish Warbler or Black-eared Kite as seperate species?

Should you count Quail based only on hearing it?

Should you count the Radipole Lake Hoody as BBRC suggest ok to make only mind up as provenance unknown, even tho they say Cat E?

Are certain Buffleheads, Fudge Ducks, Ruddy Shelduck, White-Headed Ducks, Falcated Ducks, or White Storks wild or escapes?

Birding at times is very difficult? No one can really tell you the definitive answers to the above, but they can tell you what the authorities decided.

Ship assistance counts in general, denied only when proven fed on board.

I don't tick Eagle Owls and there is presently room for doubt about the sustainability of the population. Fair enough as long as proper criteria are used to let it into Cat C if the situation changes.

Wagtails no, Redpolls have been, Crossbills - read the discussion and bear in mind that species such as Great Tit and Chaffinch have recognisable local dialects but no-one is daft enough to think they are cryptic species. Two-barred Greenish is just a Greenish but you can have Green Warbler when you see one. Be patient over Black-eared Kite, it may well go eventually.

No. Only blind people can life-tick on call. Year-ticking on call is OK by me, it reduces disturbance.

No. Wait for a good one.

Some are, some aren't. Follow the discussions and use your common sense. I have ticked Ruddy Shelduck on the basis of the massive invasion in 1994. I don't count Falcated Duck but I resent its treatment as I am convinced the 1987 one I saw was wild. Ditto White-headed Duck.

I'm not sure what you mean by a definitive answer. The authorities are thorough but conservative. Birders are not always capable of coming to a consensus. Individuals who set themselves up as authorities should be ignored.

Merry Christmas and happy twitching.

John

 

[Mysticete]

As John says, there is no definitive answer...just look at differences between checklists like IOC or Clements; both often reach different conclusions based on the same result.

For taxonomy, pick a relevant checklist that is updated and stick with it

Same thing for treating exotics, vagrants, ship-assisted birds. And if you have trouble deciding, you can always keep separate lists. I have lists for odd exotics that are not on my lifelist, heard only birds, etc.

 

[Cornish Chough]

What about the Salisbury Plain Great Bustards? They are wild birds brought to the UK from Russia and released into the wild after a period in quarantine so why are most birders saying they are not "tickable"?

Sorry if I am being rather naive or missing something here but there are a lot more intelligent and knowledgeable people on here than myself so perhaps you can help me understand.


As also stated on this thread some wildfowl is classed as an escape. Where there are species that are truly wild and also in collections etc there must be instances where it is difficult to prove the true origins of the bird. How do most people decide?