Would you personally tick, given a highly unlikely alternative ID? (1 Viewer)

[earlytorise]

I had posted my opinion on this en passant
but until I glanced through the recent thread on the potential Brown Booby split,
I didn't realise how much interest there was in this.
A poll would be quite enlightening.

Would you personally tick a species, if the sighting has an extremely unlikely (but not strictly impossible) alternative ID?
Here I speak of one's personal list - not of a records committee, scientific surveys and so on.
Speaking for myself, I wouldn't.

If you want a concrete example, one given in the Brown Booby thread is the following:
Himalayan Bluetail has been split from Red-flanked Bluetail and their first-winters are virtually impossible to separate, so UK twitchers might want to think about that.

 

[Xenospiza]

In many cases it would be impossible to exclude something irregular about the bird that you are ticking.
Could be a hybrid, could be an unlikely vagrant, could be an escape, etc.
You cannot have a full DNA analysis run on every new bird you see.

 

[Mysticete]

Birding kind of runs on likelihoods...we automatically assume the most likely possibility is indeed the correct one, unless we have been given reason to think otherwise (odd song, unusual behavior, weird time of year or habitat, area with high vagrant potential, "off" plumage features). So yes, I wouldn't have an issue with ticking something as long as I had a degree of confidence it was the correct option. Now if there was a reasonable chance I could be wrong, as in the species being a vagrant known from that area, that would be a entirely different story.

 

[pbjosh]

Depends on how highly unlikely. A female Ficedula flycatcher in the Mediterranean in spring - I think the odds of an interesting bird are high enough that without hearing it call or otherwise having some really strong evidence, it's hard to call a lot of these birds.

If I see a Band-rumped Storm-Petrel near Hawaii I will assume it is the Hawaiian form and will tick it as such unless there is a tremendous photo showing some detail that would make you think otherwise. If I have a seen-only Antbird in the Amazon that I'm ID'ing based upon where in the Amazon I am - ie, a Fire-eye, Scale-backed Antbird, Stipplethroat, etc - I am perfectly fine ID'ing it by range.

 

[Mark Harper]

Surely everyone ticks some species on range, unless you know every possible confusion species worldwide and rule them out then this is what you are doing. If you have Dunnock on your list, did you rule out Japanese Accentor, or did you rely on the fact that someone has done the work and said that it is Dunnocks that are in the UK. If the split of Iberian and Caucasian Dunnocks was to be adopted would you cross Common Dunnock off, until you could work out which you were seeing in the UK.

The same could be said for so many other UK species. Little Tern have you ruled out Least and Saunders Terns? Eurasian Sparrowhawk have you ruled out Sharp-shinned Hawk and Japanese Sparrowhawk? Blackbird have you ruled out Chinese and Indian Blackbirds or even Glossy-black Thrush? etc.

Whilst in many of these cases the similar species is highly improbable, if you are not ruling them out then you are relying on range.

 

[Mark Newsome]

Even national records committees have a high degree of assumption. EG not all accepted Black-browed Albatrosses in UK are seen close enough to determine iris colour to rule out Campbell Albatross. There is always judgement, whether personal or committee based, that an alternative very similar looking species from the other side of the world isn't involved based on likelihood. Otherwise birding would not be enjoyable and recording would be impractical.

Mark

 

[Farnboro John]

Surely everyone ticks some species on range, unless you know every possible confusion species worldwide and rule them out then this is what you are doing. If you have Dunnock on your list, did you rule out Japanese Accentor, or did you rely on the fact that someone has done the work and said that it is Dunnocks that are in the UK. If the split of Iberian and Caucasian Dunnocks was to be adopted would you cross Common Dunnock off, until you could work out which you were seeing in the UK.

The same could be said for so many other UK species. Little Tern have you ruled out Least and Saunders Terns? Eurasian Sparrowhawk have you ruled out Sharp-shinned Hawk and Japanese Sparrowhawk? Blackbird have you ruled out Chinese and Indian Blackbirds or even Glossy-black Thrush? etc.

Whilst in many of these cases the similar species is highly improbable, if you are not ruling them out then you are relying on range.

Ruled it in once.....

John

 

[dantheman]

You also have to bear in mind species and subspecies in flux ... probably just safer to tick everything as bird sp. to be honest.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Surely everyone ticks some species on range, unless you know every possible confusion species worldwide and rule them out then this is what you are doing. If you have Dunnock on your list, did you rule out Japanese Accentor, or did you rely on the fact that someone has done the work and said that it is Dunnocks that are in the UK. If the split of Iberian and Caucasian Dunnocks was to be adopted would you cross Common Dunnock off, until you could work out which you were seeing in the UK.

The same could be said for so many other UK species. Little Tern have you ruled out Least and Saunders Terns? Eurasian Sparrowhawk have you ruled out Sharp-shinned Hawk and Japanese Sparrowhawk? Blackbird have you ruled out Chinese and Indian Blackbirds or even Glossy-black Thrush? etc.

Whilst in many of these cases the similar species is highly improbable, if you are not ruling them out then you are relying on range.

Within KNOWN range, we're talking avout vagrants, the same paramaters don't apply.

 

[Zoroark]

Where I live, the Long-billed Dowitcher is fairly common during migration. On rare instances, an experienced birder may spot a Short-billed Dowitcher among the flock. I put down Long-billed on every report unless I happen to be standing with someone I recognize who positively identifies a Short-billed, which has not yet happened.

 

[lockbreeze926]

Where I live, the Long-billed Dowitcher is fairly common during migration. On rare instances, an experienced birder may spot a Short-billed Dowitcher among the flock. I put down Long-billed on every report unless I happen to be standing with someone I recognize who positively identifies a Short-billed, which has not yet happened.

Back in the day, I spent a great deal of time in the field in Florida with highly-experienced (and I mean seriously good: 50 years as birders, US lists of 600+, international experience in every continent, senior Audubon figures, regionally renowned, etc) local birders.

Their approach to Dowitchers was this: fresh water/inland - Long-billed; salt water/coast - Short-billed.

And that was it.

Now -
1. That's obviously a time-saver for the most part, but...
2. ...every individual we actually checked...they were right
3. [this, entirely my own perception] - the joy in separating the Dowitchers is limited in the extreme, unless you're seeking a lifer. Don't worry about it. You can either spend your time on chasing obscure satisfactions or...call it quick on habitat and carry on. You'll be 99% right with your call.

These aren't Ivory-billed Woodpeckers.*

(*nor Blue Jays, Pileated, etc; add your own joke.)

 

[raymie]

Back in the day, I spent a great deal of time in the field in Florida with highly-experienced (and I mean seriously good: 50 years as birders, US lists of 600+, international experience in every continent, senior Audubon figures, regionally renowned, etc) local birders.

Their approach to Dowitchers was this: fresh water/inland - Long-billed; salt water/coast - Short-billed.

And that was it.

Now -
1. That's obviously a time-saver for the most part, but...
2. ...every individual we actually checked...they were right
3. [this, entirely my own perception] - the joy in separating the Dowitchers is limited in the extreme, unless you're seeking a lifer. Don't worry about it. You can either spend your time on chasing obscure satisfactions or...call it quick on habitat and carry on. You'll be 99% right with your call.

These aren't Ivory-billed Woodpeckers.*

(*nor Blue Jays, Pileated, etc; add your own joke.)

Here in Wisconsin we get both dowitcher species despite having no salt water. They nearly always separate out by time of year though.

 

[01101001]

Back in the day, I spent a great deal of time in the field in Florida with highly-experienced (and I mean seriously good: 50 years as birders, US lists of 600+, international experience in every continent, senior Audubon figures, regionally renowned, etc) local birders.

Their approach to Dowitchers was this: fresh water/inland - Long-billed; salt water/coast - Short-billed.

And that was it.

Now -
1. That's obviously a time-saver for the most part, but...
2. ...every individual we actually checked...they were right
3. [this, entirely my own perception] - the joy in separating the Dowitchers is limited in the extreme, unless you're seeking a lifer. Don't worry about it. You can either spend your time on chasing obscure satisfactions or...call it quick on habitat and carry on. You'll be 99% right with your call.

These aren't Ivory-billed Woodpeckers.*

(*nor Blue Jays, Pileated, etc; add your own joke.)

Were they also rarity finders?
I mean, this makes me think of the Most misidentified birds in your area thread, ticking flocks of gulls and ducks on probability, without looking at them too much.

Most misidentified birds in your area

People obviously misidentify birds sometimes and there are some well-known species pairs or groups that are pretty hard to get right. My interest in this thread is not necessarily in general cases of hard identifications but in locally specific errors that regularly occur in particular places or...

www.birdforum.net

 

[Mark Newsome]

First Sooty Shearwater of the year at Whitburn yesterday, or should I say Sooty/Short-tailed... 😜

 

[Dave Ball]

First Sooty Shearwater of the year at Whitburn yesterday, or should I say Sooty/Short-tailed... 😜

…and when you get a passage of 100s of Sooties, the probability that they are all Short-tailed must get progressively smaller. 🤭

 

[kb57]

The bluetail example by the OP seems like a circumstance where (in the UK at least) you can safely discount the less likely probability, given the very small likelihood of vagrancy to Western Europe of relatively short-range migrants which breed in the Himalayas.

 

[Paul Chapman]

The bluetail example by the OP seems like a circumstance where (in the UK at least) you can safely discount the less likely probability, given the very small likelihood of vagrancy to Western Europe of relatively short-range migrants which breed in the Himalayas.

Isn't the risk here that of escape?

All the best

Paul

 

[kb57]

Isn't the risk here that of escape?

All the best

Paul

Do people keep Himalayan Bluetails as cage birds in Western Europe? I guess I shouldn't be shocked / surprised at the range of species people want to keep in captivity...

 

[Paul Chapman]

Do people keep Himalayan Bluetails as cage birds in Western Europe? I guess I shouldn't be shocked / surprised at the range of species people want to keep in captivity...

I would guess that it is a certainty. Historical references to Bluetails in captivity are as likely to be from that part of the range? Both are listed under Former Holdings in Zootierliste and that is tip of the iceberg on such species that are more likely to be cagebird keepers' species rather than zoo breeding programmes.

All the best

Paul

 

[Dortmundbirder]

Do people keep Himalayan Bluetails as cage birds in Western Europe? I guess I shouldn't be shocked / surprised at the range of species people want to keep in captivity...

Some years ago they found a Rock Bunting here in my City which was a first. Turned out, that bird was of the himalayan subspecies and an escape. I think basically everything is kept somewhere.