France, warbler (5 Viewers)

[ekopa]

Hi, ALL!

Is that possible to say for sure which warbler is this?
It was taken close to Troyes in France a few days ago.
It didn't really sing, just grumbled at me for a few seconds and disappeared)

Thanks
Alexey

 

[Lappkrabben]

Blackish legs, little fascial contrast, grey tone in the whole body/head collours. The primary projection looks a bit long but i guess within limits for the species. The bird seems to have taken a bath.

I'd say chiffchaff.

Kind regards/Mattias

 

[Mole1]

I came to the same conclusion, but the neck was confusing! I wanted to see what someone else thought first

I was originally thinking a young Reed, but the head is too small and phyllosc sized. Chiffchaff fits so happy with this.

 

[JANJ]

I can´t immediately say what it is, but the seemingly lack of enough emargination on it´s primaries does not support a Chiffchaff. And as Mattias suggest and I say - the p-projection is to long for the species. I have little Phylloscopus feel, but strangely my brain is blocked for the moment as to what else it could be. Note the tail shape and bill structure.

Others, Eduardo, CAU?

JanJ

 

[Mole1]

Ok - what about a newly fledged reed then? Is it possible that a newly fledged bird will not be as fully developed in its proportions? Looking again, the tail and undertail of the bird fits an Acro better than Chiffchaff.

 

[Motmot]

Hmmmm, I think it is a scruffy Garden Warbler.

 

[CAU]

My first thought was Reed Warbler, and I'll stick with that. An emargination on P8 only supports this, and certainly rules out all Phylloscopus warblers. Moreover, the back is brown (not green), the supercilium doesn't extend beyond the eye, the primary projection is as long as the tertials and the tail tip is rounded. Young reed warblers have clearly shorter bills than adults. Everything fits.

 

[erwin]

Could be a Garden Warbler after a bath. Thick gray feet, short stubby bill, not a lot of markings except for a light eyering.

 

[steve west]

First and most lasting impressions are of a Garden Warbler - bare parts coloration and facial "expression".

Steve
http://www.BirdingInSpain.com

 

[Motmot]

After revisiting some books I'm more convinced it is a Garden. Juvenile description certainly fits, P8 emargination too.
No scruffy juvs here but many comparison pics and info:

http://www.ibercajalav.net/img/373_GardenWarblerSborin.pdf

 

[KnockerNorton]

My first thought was Reed Warbler, and I'll stick with that. An emargination on P8 only supports this, and certainly rules out all Phylloscopus warblers. Moreover, the back is brown (not green), the supercilium doesn't extend beyond the eye, the primary projection is as long as the tertials and the tail tip is rounded. Young reed warblers have clearly shorter bills than adults. Everything fits.

no it doesn't - it doesn't have a trace of gape at all. So it's not a recent fledgling of anything.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1287/1011479430_1500581824.jpg?v=0

I can't see Reed Warlber at all. I think it's a Garden Warbler. Head looks scruffy (fits juv) but the tail also looks short (or is that just the pose), which could make it a moulting adult. It has the looks of a juv though, but not a recent one.

 

[CAU]

Ok, apparently many people seem to think it's a Garden Warbler. Personally, I completely fail to see the resemblance to one. First of all, it has clearly dark lores with a clear supercilium in front of the eye. The orbital ring is quite thin. On Garden Warblers the orbital ring dominates the facial expression. Secondly, the tertials are dark centered with warm brown edges. The tertials of Garden Warblers have white tips (unless worn), and lack dark centres. Thirdly, the longest tertial extends to the tips of the secondaries. On Garden Warblers the longest tertial extends further than the secondaries. Fourthly, Garden Warblers have dark (brown or grey) undersides of the toes. The subject bird very clearly has a yellow underside of the hind toe. Fifthly, the bill is structurally wrong for a Garden Warbler, being too thin.

Check these for reference:
http://www.ibercajalav.net/img/373_GardenWarblerSborin.pdf

no it doesn't - it doesn't have a trace of gape at all. So it's not a recent fledgling of anything.

Do you have any reference that says that the bill of a Reed Warbler (or any other warbler, for that matter) doesn't grow after the gape has disappeared?

 

[CAU]

Here's a Reed Warbler with a not yet full grown bill. Looks pretty similar, doesn't it? Compare also the colour of the hind toe.

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Roope/A_acr_palscr_web_8998.jpg

 

[KnockerNorton]

Bills don't keep growing after the gape has gone - traces of gape are retained after the bill has stopped growing. Here are some young reed warblers. Note the bill length, presence of gape in relation to that, also colour of bill (lower mandible) and of upperparts (rich brown):

http://www.birder.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ReedW 250705.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_IQ86uNQ9ghI/SG6mUUq1VeI/AAAAAAAAEg8/yg_o6CBTY6o/DPP_0987.JPG
http://cbcphotocomp.blogspot.com/2007_12_01_archive.html (3 pics, 2 up from bottom)
http://www.natureblink.com/ptaci/rakosnik7783.jpg

Even in the young fledglings, the bills are longer than on this bird.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Here's a Reed Warbler with a not yet full grown bill. Looks pretty similar, doesn't it? Compare also the colour of the hind toe.

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Roope/A_acr_palscr_web_8998.jpg

to me, that bill looks significantly longer, has a pale lower mandible, and the bird as a whole is much richer brown above.

These seem a better match to me, colour, bill, face:

http://www.errigoiti.com/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_1758/Curruca$20Mosquitera$20SylviaBorin.jpeg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/51/802551/1/86207055.dvC0X8XF.tgssumbaokt06.jpg
http://www.hlasek.com/sylvia_borin_d315.html

 

[Motmot]

CAU, you're possibly right, habitat helps . Probably the feet colour you mention (if reliable) is your best point. Tertial tips (check the August 13 juv in the page both! posted, no evident white tips), tt colours (there's a confusing shadow there) and length against secondaries (variable) hmmm...I'm not convinced yet with those. Bill and eye ring can also vary:

http://breakspics.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/05gardenwarbler7stocks.gif

Shape can also vary, the bird looks alert.
Sylvia Warblers mentions in juvenile Garden that usually has large whitish loral patch (not sure what it means, the illustration doesn't help much). Also entire upperparts washed uniform buffish olive-brown, lacking grey neck sides. The bird still has a Garden feel to me but not so sure now.
Cheers,
Eduardo

 

[CAU]

Edit: This reply was aimed to KN.

Check this image about how the light affects colour shades (the bird is a Reed Warbler):
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Acrsci080725LaajisPaP3.jpg

These Reed Warblers that you linked look very similar to the subject bird, and hardly show any trace of gape at all:
http://cbcphotocomp.blogspot.com/2007_12_01_archive.html

On the other hand, the Garden Warblers that you linked show IMHO a completely different facial expression, lacking a clear supercilium and having a proportionally much smaller eye (although the middle link doesn't work, it gives a message that says "Forbidden"). But perhaps it's better to agree to disagree.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Edit: This reply was aimed to KN.

Check this image about how the light affects colour shades (the bird is a Reed Warbler):
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Acrsci080725LaajisPaP3.jpg

yes I know, but I think the OP image is quite clear and clean.

These Reed Warblers that you linked look very similar to the subject bird, and hardly show any trace of gape at all:
http://cbcphotocomp.blogspot.com/2007_12_01_archive.html

length of bill and colour of lower mandible. It shows no gape as it's a juvenile, but the bill is very different to the OP bird to my eyes.

On the other hand, the Garden Warblers that you linked show IMHO a completely different facial expression, lacking a clear supercilium and having a proportionally much smaller eye (although the middle link doesn't work, it gives a message that says "Forbidden"). But perhaps it's better to agree to disagree.

I think so, as I don't agree with a word of that! Interesting how perceptions differ.

 

[KnockerNorton]

CAU, you're possibly right, habitat helps . Probably the feet colour you mention (if reliable) is your best point. Tertial tips (check the August 13 juv in the page both! posted, no evident white tips), tt colours (there's a confusing shadow there) and length against secondaries (variable) hmmm...I'm not convinced yet with those. Bill and eye ring can also vary:

http://breakspics.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/05gardenwarbler7stocks.gif

Shape can also vary, the bird looks alert.
Sylvia Warblers mentions in juvenile Garden that usually has large whitish loral patch (not sure what it means, the illustration doesn't help much). Also entire upperparts washed uniform buffish olive-brown, lacking grey neck sides. The bird still has a Garden feel to me but not so sure now.
Cheers,
Eduardo

recent thread on garden warblers, and a quick google, shows that face pattern (eye ring/lores/super) is quite variable. Leg colour also varies with juvs as they start with pale legs that progressively darken, although variation also affects the ultimate darkness of legs. Just think of Willow Warbler or chiffchaff leg colour variation. I don't think the colour of the underside of the toes could ever be used as an i.d. criterion - it is heavily affected by staining/age. For instance, I've handled tits with pink legs, red feet, yellow feet. Many factors influence this.

Bill is the biggest pointer on this bird for me. It looks nowhere near long enough for a Reed. My first impression was chiffchaff. I am not saying I'm 100% sure however - the tail is worrying me a bit - it seems to have shorter outers, which would favour reed, but this isn't at all clear.

 

[CAU]

Probably the feet colour you mention (if reliable) is your best point. Tertial tips (check the August 13 juv in the page both! posted, no evident white tips), tt colours (there's a confusing shadow there) and length against secondaries (variable) hmmm...I'm not convinced yet with those. Bill and eye ring can also vary:

http://breakspics.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/05gardenwarbler7stocks.gif

I agree that foot colour was my best point, at least in terms of comprehensibility. However, in this case the main feature to me is the jizz of the bird. Usually I don't use the term, as it is not too good an argument and can be interpreted quite freely.

The description of the facial pattern of GW would be quite similar to description of the facial pattern of a RW. However, in reality there are subtle differences both in proportions (eye size, bill shape) and colours (the strength of the supercilium, loral patch and orbital ring), which make the species look quite different (IMO). For example, the GW in your link above looks like a very straightforward GW to me (like all the other GWs linked in this thread), whereas the subject bird doesn't look anything like a GW. But this discussion has revealed that we don't see things the same way, and I must admit that I cannot give any better explanation why the jizz of the facial pattern of the subject bird doesn't fit GW (probably the same applies vice versa ).