New Zealand Wader ID please (1 Viewer)

[mounteden11]

hi All

I'd appreciate help confirming the identify of the smaller wader in these photos. These photos were taken in NZ a few days ago. The larger birds are bar tailed godwits - there were many of these around. I'm not sure if the smaller wader is a red knot or greater knot. Is it possible to tell based on these photos?

Again, thanks in advance for any input.

 

[Butty]

It has that small-headed great-knot look. But, on these photos, I'd pass.

 

[THE_FERN]

I can't make it other than great knot. I don't see how you could make red knot look like this, and I'm not aware of any other wader in NZ that looks similar

 

[smiths]

What exactly would be wrong with this for red knot (which I think this is)?
Great knot is a big rarity in NZ...

 

[THE_FERN]

What exactly would be wrong with this for red knot (which I think this is)?
Great knot is a big rarity in NZ...

The dumpy top-heavy appearance. It's arguably "big" compared with the godwit behind; you could probably do forensics on that size comparison to prove it one way or another. Sometimes red/great knot are difficult to distinguish and this might be one of those occasions. In general, though, (as respondents here suggest) the jizz of great knot is distinctive.

 

[smiths]

Nothing wrong with this bird's jizz for red knot, in my opinion: relatively short bill, steep forehead, short tarsus.
The plain grey crown, plain grey upperwing coverts, smudgy grey breast sides, rather dusky flank pattern and thin chevrons on rear flank all indicate red knot.
Great knots in December:

ML287087271 - Great Knot - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML287087271; © Norton Gill; Cairns, Queensland, Australia

macaulaylibrary.org

 

[Butty]

plain grey crown, plain grey upperwing coverts, smudgy grey breast sides, rather dusky flank pattern and thin chevrons on rear flank all indicate red knot

...and great knot. (You see chevrons?! 🤷🏻)

 

[smiths]

...and great knot. (You see chevrons?! 🤷🏻)

I think I do, yes. See attached.
You see a great knot?!

Great knot in winter plumage does not show thin, >-shaped markings on the rear flank, but rather solid spots (rounded or triangular in shape) or just thin, horizontal streaks.
With just one (1!) great knot in all of New Zealand in 2023 according to eBird, I feel that the onus is definitely on those who believe the photo shows this species to bring forward a bit of evidence (rather than bickering for the sake of argument - not you, The Fern).

 

[Butty]

You see a great knot?!

(Re-?)read #2.

I feel that the onus is definitely on those who believe the photo shows this species to bring forward a bit of evidence (rather than bickering for the sake of argument

No one has taken such a position, so it's best not to say that they have 👍🏻 Both contributors who suspect great knot have brought forward evidence. There are no markings clearly identifiable as chevrons in these photos. Useful to know great knot is rare in New Zealand, and that my caution in #2 was appropriate 👍🏻

 

[mounteden11]

hi All
Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I find it very helpful to hear the rationale behind the different possibilities. It's reassuring in some ways that this is not clear cut either way.

I attach a few more photos of the same bird, in case there's something in these that helps resolve the uncertainty (though I suspect not).

A bit further information that may be of relevance:

1. As well as 100+ godwits, there was a small group of around 6 red knots briefly on the beach, but they kept more to themselves, so it wasn't possible to photograph this bird with them. This bird got my attention because it was on its own and it looked a little bit different to me.

2. After reading Smiths' comment I had a look at ebird - I see there was a great knot reported on 25th November on Manukapua/Big Sand Island. This photo was taken near there, on the south side of the harbour as the tide was coming in. Large groups of waders (mostly godwits) flew by heading towards Manukapua. A few of these groups stopped for a short feed, which is when these photos were taken.

Once again, thanks for your input on this.

 

[johnallcock]

Nothing wrong with this bird's jizz for red knot, in my opinion: relatively short bill, steep forehead, short tarsus.
The plain grey crown, plain grey upperwing coverts, smudgy grey breast sides, rather dusky flank pattern and thin chevrons on rear flank all indicate red knot.
Great knots in December:

ML287087271 - Great Knot - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML287087271; © Norton Gill; Cairns, Queensland, Australia

macaulaylibrary.org

My impression is also a Red Knot, for much the same reasons. In particular, the short, stout bill and the plain grey upperparts (Great usually has darker centres to upperpart feathers in non-breeding plumage).
It does have a rather small-headed appearance like Great Knot, but I actually get more the impression of a large-bodied, fattened Red Knot (especially as the rear end looks quite fat), even though this is something I'd expect at the start of migration not at this time of year.

 

[smiths]

thin, >-shaped chevrons (boomerang-like), ruling out great knot: