Death Of The Alpha? (1 Viewer)

[chill6x6]

BULL!

I don't know anything about a ZenRay...because I have never had one. I know a good bit about a Vanguard Endeavor ED II because I've had one for about a year and four months. Correct me if I'm wrong but that would probably be longer than there has even BEEN some binocular brands on the market currently.

Throwing EVERYTHING MIC into the same boat is pretty irresponsible. Anyone doing so are so in the minority here thankfully. I have to wonder if those making comments have even owned a ED II. Quotes from others seem to be in vogue here so I'll give a few concerning the Vanguard Endeavor ED II:

Best Binocular Reviews
2014 Award Winner Best Wildlife and Hunting Binocular
Whilst I cannot know for sure if the Japanese made ED lenses are better than those used by others, I can say that the image you get to see through the Vanguard Endeavor ED II 8420 binocular is superb. Not only is it very bright, but is sharp and flat right to the edges, with vibrant colors and with seemingly almost no color fringing. In this area, I feel Vanguard have excelled and they match bins that are significantly more expensive.

Birds and Blooms magazine
Best Midrange Binocular

Allbinos
To be honest I can barely believe my own eyes. I knew that the tested pair of binoculars might be a very good instrument, it was enough I spend several moments with it to assess roughly its possibilities. I had an opportunity to play with the Endeavor ED II binoculars during our Rally; I was sure they all were very well done, the 10x magnification model appearing to be the best of the group. Now the total result of all categories confirmed that initial impression – the tested device’s final score is simply brilliant, especially if you take into account the fact that you deal here with a pair of binoculars produced in China which cost just about 500 Euro.

Just thinking out loud...is allbinos the #1 site we use for unbiased binocular reviews? I believe it is.....

I don't have any dog in this fight. I don't care WHAT brand binocular someone buys. Agenda? None here whatsoever. I don't own or use just one or two brands of binoculars so basically bias would be literally IMPOSSIBLE.

From Vanguard USA website:

Founded in 1986, Vanguard World began as a single manufacturing facility and has since grown into an industry-leading global corporation. Vanguard World manufactures high-quality photo-video accessories (tripods, monopods, tripod heads, camera bags and cases), sporting optics (riflescopes, binoculars and spotting scopes), and sporting accessories (gun cases and gun pods/shooting sticks). A woman-owned and operated company, Vanguard World is headquartered in Guangdong, China, and has successful distribution, sales and administrative branches in the United States, Luxembourg, the United Kingdom, Spain, Germany, and Japan.

Vanguard has earned a worldwide reputation for our keen understanding of what the market demands: innovation and reliability. Hundreds of thousands of photographers and outdoor enthusiasts around the world use Vanguard accessories every day. Vanguard's team of engineers designs initial concepts, and then Vanguard manufactures these products in its own factories. Vanguard ensures the highest quality products from start to finish.

Whether you’re a birdwatcher, a photographer, or a sportsman, Vanguard produces the accessories that enhance those indescribable moments that drive you every day. When everything around you stops and all you see, feel and hear is just before you, Vanguard is there with you, keeping your view clear and steady.

I get a couple of things out of this. ONE is that Vanguard manufactures their OWN BINOCULARS! Fancy THAT! TWO is that Vanguard has been in business since 1986! Does that sound like a company you'd trust to warranty your binocular?

Is the Endeavor ED II the best binocular in its price range? I don't know, but it IS a good one. I ALSO know then Endeavor is on it's THIRD model! Hmmm..doesn't sound like a failure to me.

Sorry...but saying the Vanguard ED II is cheap or poor quality is just bull. Nothing more, nothing less. Probably the same goes for the Zeiss Terra ED.

For the time being, I even have both the Tract Toric AND the ED II right here in Athens AL!

Back to your regularly scheduled program!

 

[[email protected]]

Chuck. I have had many Vanguard binoculars including the EDII. Although I felt they were pretty good optically I had trouble with the focus developing slack in the earlier models and they always had too much CA for me. I tried the new Vanguard ED II because I heard they were improved but I still found them to have too much CA with noticeable green fringing for me and they never seemed as bright as some of the other binoculars I had and that correlates with the low transmission figures Allbino's found on them of 79.9% which is quite low compared to say the Maven B.2 9x45 which is 93.70%. IMO they are a good value at the price point but build quality wise or optically they are NOT in the same class as the Tract Toric or the Maven's and that is logical because they are way less expensive. I have had much better luck with Japanese binoculars than I have had with Chinese binocular so in my opinion based on my considerable past experience Japanese binoculars seem to have better quality control. You have had good luck with your Vanguards ED II and that is great but we just differ in our opinion of them and that is fine.

http://www.allbinos.com/279-binoculars_review-Vanguard_Endeavor_ED_II_10x42.html

 

[jgraider]

chill6x6, I personally liked the EDII I got to fiddle with for a couple of days. It had fantastic optics and much better built than my ZR ED2 or Zeiss Terra for that matter.

 

[Torview]

IMO they are a good value at the price point but build quality wise or optically they are NOT in the same class as the Tract Toric or the Maven's and that is logical because they are way less expensive.

So, using your own logic, Alpha's must be in another class because they are way more expensive :-O

 

[[email protected]]

IMO they are a good value at the price point but build quality wise or optically they are NOT in the same class as the Tract Toric or the Maven's and that is logical because they are way less expensive.

So, using your own logic, Alpha's must be in another class because they are way more expensive :-O

The Tract Toric and Maven defy that logic. They push way above their price point because of the costs savings of eliminating the middle man and the overhead of manufacturing binoculars, keeping a parts inventory and having a repair department and on and on. You could take a Maven or Tract Toric and put a Zeiss badge on them and nobody would bat an eye if you asked $1500 to $2000 for them.

 

[Torview]

The Tract Toric and Maven defy that logic. They push way above their price point because of the costs savings of eliminating the middle man and the overhead of manufacturing binoculars, keeping a parts inventory and having a repair department and on and on. You could take a Maven or Tract Toric and put a Zeiss badge on them and nobody would bat an eye if you asked $1500 to $2000 for them.

Except Pete Gamby it seems.

 

[Troubador]

Except Pete Gamby it seems.

:t::t::t::t::t:

And unlike Dennis (and the rest of us) Pete is in the business of dealing with out-sourced production and has knowledge of the costs of doing so.
When he says Tracts are priced higher than he would expect he is making that judgement with insider knowledge.

Lee

 

[Alexis Powell]

...You could take a Maven or Tract Toric and put a Zeiss badge on them and nobody would bat an eye if you asked $1500 to $2000 for them.

Ha! Wrong, wrong, wrong. Any Zeiss aficionado would be instantly dismayed by the substandard 8x42 FOV, substandard close focus, wrong focus direction, and very substandard minimum IPD (deal killer for many kids, women, and those with wider set eyes but who routinely use bins at close focus limit for butterflies). These are some of the same traits that make us cringe to see the Zeiss label on the x32 and x42 Terra cheapies. Sure, we've seen other crappy bins from Zeiss before (e.g. 8x30 Diafun) but they were also openly marketed as cheap and cheerful.

--AP

 

[jgraider]

Ha! Wrong, wrong, wrong. Any Zeiss aficionado would be instantly dismayed by the substandard 8x42 FOV, substandard close focus, wrong focus direction, and very substandard minimum IPD (deal killer for many kids, women, and those with wider set eyes but who routinely use bins at close focus limit for butterflies). These are some of the same traits that make us cringe to see the Zeiss label on the x32 and x42 Terra cheapies. Sure, we've seen other crappy bins from Zeiss before (e.g. 8x30 Diafun) but they were also openly marketed as cheap and cheerful.

--AP

Maybe so, but it would definitely make you wonder why you spent $2k on 'em, and why the TT only cost $600.

 

[[email protected]]

Ha! Wrong, wrong, wrong. Any Zeiss aficionado would be instantly dismayed by the substandard 8x42 FOV, substandard close focus, wrong focus direction, and very substandard minimum IPD (deal killer for many kids, women, and those with wider set eyes but who routinely use bins at close focus limit for butterflies). These are some of the same traits that make us cringe to see the Zeiss label on the x32 and x42 Terra cheapies. Sure, we've seen other crappy bins from Zeiss before (e.g. 8x30 Diafun) but they were also openly marketed as cheap and cheerful.

--AP

I have never felt penalized by the slightly smaller FOV of the Tract and I have had many alpha level binoculars nor has a couple of feet of close focus ever been an issue. In all the binoculars I have owned I frankly have never noticed what direction they focus because I adapted to whichever direction it was nor has IPD ever been insufficient in any of them including the Tract or Maven. I must say that I don't do butterflies. I use them for birding and wildlife observation mostly. I think if I did observe butteflies and insects a lot a would invest in a pair of Pentax Papilio 6.5x21 which would give you a much closer focus than any Zeiss and be superior for close observations. They are only $125.00. So you could have the Tract's for $650.00 and the Papilio for $125.00 and still only have $725.00 invested. If two feet of close focus and focus direction and IPD distance is that important to you that you are willing to put out $1500.00 more for your binoculars that is your decision. My point is for MOST people for BIRDING the Tract's or Maven's will do everything the alpha's will for a LOT less money.

https://www.eagleoptics.com/product...k9Gv9Ia67L8TMTvUGR6dB0lhzP7rTOaO0dxoCtO_w_wcB

 

[Troubador]

I must say that I don't do butterflies. I use them for birding and wildlife observation mostly. I think if I did observe butteflies and insects a lot a would invest in a pair of Pentax Papilio 6.5x21 which would give you a much closer focus than any Zeiss and be superior for close observations.

Dennis, butterflies are wildlife. And so are dragonflies and many other fascinating critters.

1.5 / 2.0 metres (6.5 ft) close focus is fine for most purposes and is typical of many bins these days. Get a decent pair of nature observation bins with a decent close focus and you don't need to carry a Pentax Papillio as well as your general purpose bins. Getting closer than this is only for special purposes as you risk spooking the insect. And while the little Pentax is good at close focusing, its field of view of only 105m at 1000 metres means you have to have a lot of luck and skill to get a focus on a nearby fast flying butterfly or dragonfly. For that you need a nice big FOV more like 140m or 400+ft not the Tract 8x42s 377ft.

I am sure the Tracts are decent bins, and I would love to try them, but you aren't doing them any favours by pumping them.

Lee



L

 

[maico]

BULL!


Is the Endeavor ED II the best binocular in its price range? I don't know, but it IS a good one. I ALSO know then Endeavor is on it's THIRD model! Hmmm..doesn't sound like a failure to me.

IV ?

https://www.cliftoncameras.co.uk/vanguard-10x42-endeavor-ed-iv-binoculars

 

[BruceH]

IV ?

https://www.cliftoncameras.co.uk/vanguard-10x42-endeavor-ed-iv-binoculars

That is it. For reasons unknown to me, Vanguard went from the Endeavor ED II to the Endeavor ED IV, skipping an Endeavor ED III model.

Maybe they were inspired by Microsoft going from Windows 8.x to Windows 10 with no Windows 9.

 

[james holdsworth]

Great as either these two brands may be, the over-zealousness is off-putting - I'm sure to more than just me.

 

[maico]

That is it. For reasons unknown to me, Vanguard went from the Endeavor ED II to the Endeavor ED IV, skipping an Endeavor ED III model.

Helps them hike the price !

 

[[email protected]]

Dennis, butterflies are wildlife. And so are dragonflies and many other fascinating critters.

1.5 / 2.0 metres (6.5 ft) close focus is fine for most purposes and is typical of many bins these days. Get a decent pair of nature observation bins with a decent close focus and you don't need to carry a Pentax Papillio as well as your general purpose bins. Getting closer than this is only for special purposes as you risk spooking the insect. And while the little Pentax is good at close focusing, its field of view of only 105m at 1000 metres means you have to have a lot of luck and skill to get a focus on a nearby fast flying butterfly or dragonfly. For that you need a nice big FOV more like 140m or 400+ft not the Tract 8x42s 377ft.

I am sure the Tracts are decent bins, and I would love to try them, but you aren't doing them any favours by pumping them.

Lee



L

If you are looking at a butterfly from 8 feet away with an 8x binocular like the Tract(which has an 8ft close focus) it will show it at as 12 inches correct? If you look at the same butterfly from 6 feet away with an 8x binocular like the Zeiss(which has an 6ft close focus) and possibly risk spooking it will show as 9 inches correct? Now you are telling me 3 INCHES CLOSER is going to show that much more detail on the butterfly! I don't buy it! It is the purpose of this thread to promote the Tracts and Maven's as an alternative to overpriced alpha level binoculars and my theory is they will eventually steal a lot of market share from the alpha's resulting in the alpha's ultimate demise.

 

[[email protected]]

That is it. For reasons unknown to me, Vanguard went from the Endeavor ED II to the Endeavor ED IV, skipping an Endeavor ED III model.

Maybe they were inspired by Microsoft going from Windows 8.x to Windows 10 with no Windows 9.

Maybe they feel odd numbers are unlucky. You know superstitious.

 

[gunut]

maybe they felt they made so many improvements over the II that a single number increase just did not seem sufficient....
BTW I have one of the original 10.5x45 Vanguard Endeavor ED bins ...Nothing to get excited about but nice....now tell me about all the CA they are plagued with....bite me...:-O

 

[Chosun Juan]

:gh:
Me and jgraider really see eye to eye on a lot of things. He described exactly how I feel about most Chinese binoculars including Zenrays and Vanguard ED II's. Within two minutes you can tell they are Chinese and CHEAP. I have had a ton of Chinese binoculars over the years including a slug of Zenrays and several Vanguards ED's and many other Chinese binoculars and I have always had some kind of quality issues with them. Either the focus goes wacky, the diopter locks up, the eye cups are way too loose, the armour is loose or some other problem. Chinese binoculars LOOK like you bought them at Big Lot's. The optics are pretty good on them. Some of them are excellent but the build quality is very poor in most cases. In contrast I have had really zero problems with Japanese built binoculars. This is based on ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. China does NOT have as good of quality control as Japan. That is why I avoid buying Chinese binoculars. I would never buy another Zenray. They have no customer service right now which makes you wonder if they are going to be in business a year from now. On the other hand that is what is different about these new Kamakura binoculars like the Tract Toric and the Maven B.2. They have everything! The optics are superb and the build quality is superb. When you place a Maven or Tract next to an alpha you can't really tell the difference in quality. If you put a Zenray or Vanguard ED II in the lineup it is easy for ME to tell it is Chinese. Chosun you need to TRY a Tract or Maven and you will change your mind......

Dennis, I'm glad you've learned how to use the BF formatting syntax better, but really SHOUTING all this stuff in BOLD repeatedly doesn't make it true. :eek!:

Fact is that you've never tried a Zen-Ray ED3. You have NO "ACTUAL EXPERIENCE" of them. The Big Wigs at Swarovski almost spat their Chai Latte's out when they looked through them - they were that good. They are vastly vastly superior quality-wise to the ED2. You can't lump the ED3's in with Wal-Mart blister pack cheap Chinese pos (to use your terminology). :cat:

Fact is you've probably tried more Chinese binoculars than you are aware of. Just because a badge says Made in Germany, or Made in Japan, doesn't mean that parts of, most assemblies, or nearly all of the binocular is not sourced and made in China. :cat: You really are starting to talk through your hat, and in danger of crossing the line from enthusiasm to boorish stoopidity.

I would like to see the A-K prism Maven B2's, but only from an optical design curiosity point of view. I am glad they took up my suggestion of the 9x45 format (even though what I really want now is a 9x50! so kudos to them. However with a CCW to infinity focuser I have no interest in purchasing them, nor at that weight for a mere '45'. :cat:

I have no real interest either in the CCW focusing 8x Tract with its narrow 57° AFov and only 70% sweet spot as you posted in the Tract thread. There were reports of loose armour in that thread, and reports of CA from people not readily susceptible to CA. The 10x was rated as not quite as good as the 8x. Hardly compelling. :smoke:

I know some folk like it which is great for them, but I was quite underwhelmed by the Zeiss Conquest HD. This Tract is nothing more than virtually the same bin in a different skin - at least it's cheaper. I really wonder how these new companies (Maven, GPO) will fare selling the same re-skinned and re-badged Kamakura sourced 2nd tier bins as the Alphas do ..... at pretty much the same price! #takenformugsmuch? The Tract seems priced more realistically, but then the mail is that there's still plenty of meat on the bone anyway ..... :eat: :eek!:

This thread is still as ridiculous as it was several hundred posts ago -- I'm off to talk to brick walls and watch paint dry - literally!


Chosun :gh:

 

[Chosun Juan]

Great as either these two brands may be, the over-zealousness is off-putting - I'm sure to more than just me.

+1 :t:

Agree, James. It's becoming *vomit* inducing ....


Chosun :gh: