Is the best roof in the world better optically than the best porro? (2 Viewers)

Pileatus · Aug 21, 2013

BruceH said:
Of course a good portion of that "rude and truly obnoxious garbage" heaped upon him is his own words re-quoted from his prior posts. That quandary does make is more difficult to be something other than cool, calm and collected.

Sorry, but you're wrong. There are many who never hesitate to resort to ad-hominems. Dennis simply changes his mind based on new experiences. His opinions, like all the rest, are essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

As I said, I cannot remember one hostile reply from Dennis. Now that's an accomplishment.

ceasar · Aug 21, 2013

steve@37n84w said:
Chosun

If asked directly which is better optically (8x30 Habicht or 8x32 EL) I'm sure he will declare his current love better optically based upon his "infallible and impartial memory test". Our own stephenb compared/tested his own Habicht and SV EL and if I remember correctly he found them virtually equal in optical performance/quality. I just reread a pm he sent me after he purchased his Habicht and he was particularly impressed with the Habicht's on axis sharpness and light transmission.

I've been toying with the idea of purchasing a 8x32 roof for a lightweight travel/birding bino but it won't be easy considering how many great choices are available in the 8x32 configuration. I've had at least a cursory glance through each of the big four contenders (8x32 SV EL, 8x32 EDG, 8x32 FL, and 8x32 Ultravid) and as far as optics none of them had the "wow" factor. The one that stood out as far as ergonomics and for being what I consider the right size in the 8x32 configuration (very small and lightweight) was the Ultravid.

Steve

You misspelled "partial" in his memory test.

Bob

Alexis Powell · Aug 21, 2013

Ought to be a sticky to the message linked here

Wow, once again Dennis has managed to inspire many pages of discussion and concern. I haven't followed along for the whole thread so maybe this has already been done, but to those new to the forum who don't understand what is meant by pumping a bin before dumping it and other references, or to those old timers who are concerned to set the record straight so that current and future readers can have some perspective on this discussion, I recommend referring back to this post (and the rest of the thread it is part of, if you have the time)

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=2226146&highlight=can't+stand+owning+loser#post2226146

I've read most of Dennis' posts over the years, and I think this one, and some after it in the same thread, is the most psychologically revealing. Any time I feel inspired to jump in on one of these sort of "Howard Stern" inflammatory threads I'm usually able to resist by referring back to it. Maybe there should be a sticky to it under the topic heading "understanding where Dennis is coming from" or something along those lines.

Hope this helps,

--AP

BruceH · Aug 22, 2013

Pileatus said:
...........................

As I said, I cannot remember one hostile reply from Dennis. Now that's an accomplishment.

As Terry Bradshaw says (former US football player and now commentator) " Now that's funny"!

Good job!

mooreorless · Aug 22, 2013

Alexis Thanks for the link and laugh, esp. Bob C's post number #97 on that thread!:-O I sort of forgot about that thread.

NDhunter · Aug 22, 2013

Dennis is just a troll !

I do know most understand where this post is coming from.

I have mentioned this before, but anyone who likes to inflame,
and declare things the best, etc. is just a troll.

Just an attention getter, optics are secondary. It is easy to pick
out the best optics, some guys just like to play around, and draw
attention to themselves.

Don't feed the troll.|=@| Think about that, when posting to this guys
posts, the next time around. That means ignore and let it go.

Jerry

stephen b · Aug 22, 2013

steve@37n84w said:
Chosun

If asked directly which is better optically (8x30 Habicht or 8x32 EL) I'm sure he will declare his current love better optically based upon his "infallible and impartial memory test". Our own stephenb compared/tested his own Habicht and SV EL and if I remember correctly he found them virtually equal in optical performance/quality. I just reread a pm he sent me after he purchased his Habicht and he was particularly impressed with the Habicht's on axis sharpness and light transmission.

Steve

I found when comparing them that to my eyes from a pure optic quality stand point- the 8x30 Habicht did not hold any back seat to the SV. The on axis resolution of the Habicht is simply fantastic and it is every bit as sharp as the SV in that regard- in fact it may be sharper. The little Habicht is very bright and to my eyes it resolved more detail and had better contrast than the current Nikon EII that I compared it to. I did not have an SE when I wrote that impression, but last summer when I compared the SE to the SV they were very, very close when it came to contrast and detail resolution.

In an overall binocular package the SV is a probably a better "package" of parts than the Habicht ( or include the SE in the same way)- but from a strict optics stand point the Habicht and the SE hang right with the SV. In fact there are certainly things that may be better optically about those porro's; - for one being that, and this is hard to pin point exactly with words, but to me the Habicht just had an easier effortless view if you will. You just big them up and point them at what you are looking at and the view is sharp and crisp. It does have a couple minor faults, but over all it is a great optical instrument.

But, to me the 8x32 SV may be the Decathlon champion of binoculars. I had mentioned this before, and I thought that analogy again a couple weeks ago when our own local World record holder and Olympic Champion Decathlete (Ashton Eaton) won the recent World Championship. He did not have every event that he did be the best of everyone, or even his best- but it was still overall better than everyone else. To me the 8x32 SV is like that and maybe even more so- in that it is very strong ( exceptional really) in almost every category; and really does not have weak ones. Other than if you are one of those effected by its flat field design ( the infamous RB). It may just be the overall bino champ.

For disclosure purposes- I personally do not presently own a SV.

steve@37n84w · Aug 22, 2013

FrankD said:
You didn't even scratch the surface with that list Bruce. Prior to that it was the Leica 8x32 and 7x42 Trinovids, the Zeiss 10x42 FL, the Swaro 8x32 EL and probably some others that I have forgotten at this point.

I can't fault him as he has good taste in binoculars. The sad part is he could have avoided all this if he would have simply stated that whatever his current choice was at a given point in time was "his favorite" instead of being the best binocular period.

Frank

I agree that if Dennis would simply proclaim his latest infatuation as his current favorite it would be a lot more appropriate, especially considering how often he changes his mind and totally contradicts himself. But Dennis being Dennis he feels compelled to convince everyone on the forum that his latest is the "best" and doesn't like it when someone disagrees with his latest choice.

I'm fortunate to have some really nice glass and often comment on one of my binos being better in some respect than one of my others; however, I would never be so presumptuous as to claim my binocular is the "best" for anyone else. As a result of having quite a few binoculars (ok way too many) Dennis's "best" has often coincided with a binocular I have and on such occasions I inwardly cringe because I don't like to talk positively about a certain binocular if it bolsters or encourages Dennis in any way.

Of course as regular forum members know this type of situation always takes care of itself because Dennis always changes his mind within a few months.....or weeks.....or days.....or less.

Steve

NDhunter · Aug 22, 2013

Don't feed the troll, it seems you have not got the message yet.

Nothing gained in this post. Think about it.

Jerry

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

Torview said:
As Chosun suggests, we`ll go through this all over again soon when the 32mm HT comes out !

Looking forward to to that one............

..Is the best roof in the world better optically than the best roof in the world ?....

How sure of a thing is the Zeiss HT 8x32? Is it coming out in 6 months or a year or two?

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

BruceH said:
Yet here is a post from Aug, 2012 in response to a favorable review of the 8X32 SV:

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2503645&postcount=11

In addition to the contradiction, I do see some merit in the underlined part of the statement.

(Note: Underline added by me.)

I have had more time with the SV now to compare it in different conditions and under different lighting and I have decided under most conditions it out performs the SE or EII. That is just my opinion.

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

Torview said:
Bruce I nearly wet myself, well done for finding that one !

I`ll just tack on this Dennis statement regarding the 32mm SV:-

"Compare them to an SE at 10 feet with a DVD case. It will make you cry."

The DVD case apparent sharpness advantage of porro's is due more to their optical design than their in fact being sharper. The lettering appears larger with the porro hence you think it is sharper when in fact it just the differences in optical design between a porro and a roof.

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

BruceH said:
Torview .... some more, just for you!

Here is a post from Oct. 2012 in reply to a favorable review of the SV 8X32 and SE:

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2560035&postcount=18

If I listened, instead of saving money, I would have spent a fortune on....
- Zeiss 8X32 FL
- Nikon 8X32 EDG-II
- Nikon SE 8X32
- Nikon 8X30 EII
- Swaro Habitcht
- Sworovision 8X32 EL
- a trunk full of one week wonders

(Note: Underlining and bolding added by me.)

This thread is sure bringing all the SE lovers out of the woodwork. If I couldn't afford an SV that's what I would still own. The SE and EII are the best optics you can buy "FOR THE MONEY". Heh, I have had more time with the SV and I changed my mind. Overall the SV has better optics and is a better binocular. For $600.00 the SE is the best you can get but if you can afford the SV and want only one all around binocular it is superior in most ways and I will stick with that.

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

stephen b said:
I found when comparing them that to my eyes from a pure optic quality stand point- the 8x30 Habicht did not hold any back seat to the SV. The on axis resolution of the Habicht is simply fantastic and it is every bit as sharp as the SV in that regard- in fact it may be sharper. The little Habicht is very bright and to my eyes it resolved more detail and had better contrast than the current Nikon EII that I compared it to. I did not have an SE when I wrote that impression, but last summer when I compared the SE to the SV they were very, very close when it came to contrast and detail resolution.

In an overall binocular package the SV is a probably a better "package" of parts than the Habicht ( or include the SE in the same way)- but from a strict optics stand point the Habicht and the SE hang right with the SV. In fact there are certainly things that may be better optically about those porro's; - for one being that, and this is hard to pin point exactly with words, but to me the Habicht just had an easier effortless view if you will. You just big them up and point them at what you are looking at and the view is sharp and crisp. It does have a couple minor faults, but over all it is a great optical instrument.

But, to me the 8x32 SV may be the Decathlon champion of binoculars. I had mentioned this before, and I thought that analogy again a couple weeks ago when our own local World record holder and Olympic Champion Decathlete (Ashton Eaton) won the recent World Championship. He did not have every event that he did be the best of everyone, or even his best- but it was still overall better than everyone else. To me the 8x32 SV is like that and maybe even more so- in that it is very strong ( exceptional really) in almost every category; and really does not have weak ones. Other than if you are one of those effected by its flat field design ( the infamous RB). It may just be the overall bino champ.

For disclosure purposes- I personally do not presently own a SV.

"But, to me the 8x32 SV may be the Decathlon champion of binoculars. I had mentioned this before, and I thought that analogy again a couple weeks ago when our own local World record holder and Olympic Champion Decathlete (Ashton Eaton) won the recent World Championship. He did not have every event that he did be the best of everyone, or even his best- but it was still overall better than everyone else. To me the 8x32 SV is like that and maybe even more so- in that it is very strong ( exceptional really) in almost every category; and really does not have weak ones. Other than if you are one of those effected by its flat field design ( the infamous RB). It may just be the overall bino champ."

That is my point exactly. The SV is the best all-around binocular you can buy. Sure the porro's have their optical strong points like transmission but the thing about the SV is that it has no weak points like ER and hard short eyecups are on the Habicht.

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

Annabeth2 said:
'Top Dog' agrees with me that the best bin in the world is the little CL 8x30...
and it's not because I just gave him a biscuit.

Can't we all just get along ? :hi:

I liked the CL. I had it TWICE. The narrow FOV just always got too me. I kept thinking I was missing something all the time. Then I put an EL up to my eyes and went AAAAAAAAAH! Now that's more like it. I love the size and shape of it though.

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

steve@37n84w said:
Frank

I agree that if Dennis would simply proclaim his latest infatuation as his current favorite it would be a lot more appropriate, especially considering how often he changes his mind and totally contradicts himself. But Dennis being Dennis he feels compelled to convince everyone on the forum that his latest is the "best" and doesn't like it when someone disagrees with his latest choice.

I'm fortunate to have some really nice glass and often comment on one of my binos being better in some respect than one of my others; however, I would never be so presumptuous as to claim my binocular is the "best" for anyone else. As a result of having quite a few binoculars (ok way too many) Dennis's "best" has often coincided with a binocular I have and on such occasions I inwardly cringe because I don't like to talk positively about a certain binocular if it bolsters or encourages Dennis in any way.

Of course as regular forum members know this type of situation always takes care of itself because Dennis always changes his mind within a few months.....or weeks.....or days.....or less.

Steve

I am not saying the SV is the best for everybody under every situation. What I am saying is that it is the best ALL-AROUND BIRDING BINOCULAR made. That's all.

A2GG · Aug 22, 2013

[email protected] said:
I liked the CL. I had it TWICE. The narrow FOV just always got too me. I kept thinking I was missing something all the time. Then I put an EL up to my eyes and went AAAAAAAAAH! Now that's more like it. I love the size and shape of it though.

Yeah it is a narrow fov. I guess I'm just used to it since I used the Leupold Katmai 8x32 for a couple of years or more and that has a very narrow fov; not sufficient enough for most birders.

was only kidding about the CL being the 'best' btw, but Top Dog wasn't ...
then again he'll say anything for a biscuit.

denco@comcast.n · Aug 22, 2013

Annabeth2 said:
Yeah it is a narrow fov. I guess I'm just used to it since I used the Leupold Katmai 8x32 for a couple of years or more and that has a very narrow fov; not sufficient enough for most birders.

was only kidding about the CL being the 'best' btw, but Top Dog wasn't ...
then again he'll say anything for a biscuit.

Never cared for the Katmai. Poor contrast. Seemed kind of dead to me. The CL is very good though. Underated by most. It has excellent contrast.

steve@37n84w · Aug 22, 2013

[email protected] said:
I am not saying the SV is the best for everybody under every situation. What I am saying is that it is the best ALL-AROUND BIRDING BINOCULAR made. That's all.

That is quite different from your original post in which you asked whether the best roofs were better optically than the best porros. No mention of the best birding binocular in your op but no one is surprised this has morphed into another my binocular is the "best" thread.|=o|

Torview · Aug 22, 2013

[email protected] said:
How sure of a thing is the Zeiss HT 8x32? Is it coming out in 6 months or a year or two?

Zeiss can`t sit on the FL fence forever, at some point they will need a top 32mm to match the 42mm`.

Have you tried an HT yet ?

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