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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Victory HT 8x42 (1 Viewer)

Henry:

I like your post and how you have posted your results. It would seem that all binocular users
should run out and buy a Zeiss FL 8x56.

But we know that will not happen, as 99% of users will buy a smaller and easier to use binocular for
their uses. They will not see what you present, in everyday viewing.

Jerry
 
Henry,

Thanks for the excellent work, photographic and observational. I know nothing of the difficulties of photographing a resolution chart in a meaningful way, but if you say these photos are good, then I believe you. This hard data supports your previous observational finding that in daylight, due to the shrunken eye pupil, when only the sweet central path through the optics is used, the 8x56 FL beats all comers. Congrats!

Very likely, I would guess, to you the 8x56 beats all comers in all conditions or you wouldn't like it so much. But to me, my 8x30 Fujinon is the "subjectively sharpest" of a bunch of such good binoculars that I'm inclined to take the effect seriously and wonder about it. Your measurement (the tape method is impressive in its economy and simplicity) of your own pupils at the binocular being 2.5mm viewing bright conditions, and 4.5mm in the shade, supports my contention.

I suppose my eyes are significantly aberrational at wider pupil widths. In this way, I hardly feel like the Lone Ranger, as it is the reason for eye resolution peaking around 3mm rather at larger openings where theoretical resolution should be better. It is often mentioned in astronomy discussions, which relate to fully open eye pupils, that smaller binocular exit pupils result in the impression of smaller sharper stars, and the above assumption of mine is commonly understood as the reason for the night time effect. I guess the day time effect is smaller, but similar, and noticeable in small doses to experienced observers whose eyes are thus plagued.

It is reasonable that you should measure "binoculars", which one hopes achieve a good degree of uniformity, and give the hope of completely objective data, also keeping eyes out of it makes measurement possible for the amateur investigator. A random lot of eyes undoubtedly vary in quality many times more than a lot of Zeiss FLs! Even so, there is so much evidence of the exit pupil/sharpness effect at night, and sufficient evidence of it by day as well, that I fear the selection of the sharpest binocular becomes a very personal matter, and binoculars with large exit pupils may not always win the apparent sharpness contest.

Not that apparent sharpness is everything. Eye positioning issues with my 8x30 drive me nuts, and its image is rather colorless as well, problems both addressed by a larger exit pupil. It is not my favorite binocular by any means, just weird in this one way.

Ron
 
Thanks PHA,

No I wouldn't suggest anyone get a 10x32 as their main binocular but having a set of objective covers with 25mm holes in them can really 'sharpen-up' the view on occasions. ;)

Cheers,

David


As I understand it, stopping down the binocular objective means using the "best" part of the objective lens (lowest aberrations in the center). So I guess that it will not be equal to using a smaller objective bin?

With a stopped-down bin set-up I think it might be difficult to show that the cause of potential increased perceived sharpness is the smaller exit pupil rather than using the central part of the objective.

Dawes limit (R = 4.56/D) would also suggest that the max. theoretical resolution will decrease stopped down (smaller D), not necessarily a good thing?

A slight brightness loss also can make things look more "contrasty" if the current light is good.

So I just wonder what the explanatory model would be for a smaller exit pupil bin as a 10x32 would look sharper than a 10x42? Angle of incidence on the cornea? Circular area of the cornea used? wouldn't it be identical due to different usage distances? And wouldn't it be more of a question of the eye relief? And also the quality and aberrations of the image disc produced by the binocular itself?

Current eye pupil size will also have an effect on the max sharpness the eye could reach I guess. With a smaller eye pupil it will be sharper. A 42mm bin will gather more photons, so total amount of photons will be larger with a larger bin, photon density might be not. A 32mm bin with less glass in the light path could have better transmission on the other hand. Any effect on the pupil size there? Definitely in low light conditions, where the pupil size exceeds the EP, though any potential exit pupil effect on sharpness would be most relevant in daylight.

Just wondering..
:smoke:
 
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As I understand it, stopping down the binocular objective means using the "best" part of the objective lens (lowest aberrations in the center). So I guess that it will not be equal to using a smaller objective bin?

With a stopped-down bin set-up I think it might be difficult to show that the cause of potential increased perceived sharpness is the smaller exit pupil rather than using the central part of the objective.

Dawes limit (R = 4.56/D) would also suggest that the max. theoretical resolution will decrease stopped down (smaller D), not necessarily a good thing?

A slight brightness loss also can make things look more "contrasty" if the current light is good.

So I just wonder what the explanatory model would be for a smaller exit pupil bin as a 10x32 would look sharper than a 10x42? Angle of incidence on the cornea? Circular area of the cornea used? wouldn't it be identical due to different usage distances? And wouldn't it be more of a question of the eye relief?

Current eye pupil size will also have an effect on the max sharpness the eye could reach I guess. With a smaller pupil the eye will be sharper. A 42mm bin will gather more photons, so total amount of photons will be larger with a larger bin, photon density might be not. A 32mm bin with less glass in the light path could have better transmission on the other hand. Any effect on the pupil size there? Definitely in low light conditions, though the exit pupil effect on sharpness would be most relevant in daylight.

Just wondering..
:smoke:

Lets keep it metric and use millimeters so the Dawes limit is 116/D. A 10x42 would therefore have a theoretical resolution limit of 116/42= 2.76 arcseconds. For the last ten years to qualify as a high quality binocular it only had to be better than 5.8". I was told that Zeiss, for example, usually used 5.2" as a cut off, but I've measured quite expensive models atm5.6" and relatively inexpensive ones at 3.5". This year ISO 14133-2 was changed and a 10x42 only needs be better than 6.4" now. The same standard means that an x32 limit is 7.5" and an x25, 11". In my view, a rediculously lax standard, particularly for smaller objectives, as I'll try to explain.

Optimum visual acuity occurs in fairly bright conditions when the pupil of the eye is around 2.5mm in diameter. This is when we make the highest demand on a binocular's optical resolution. When using a 10x42 with a 4.2mm pupil in bright conditions the light from the perimeter of the objective is blocked by the iris of the eye from reaching the objective. Only the light from the centre 2.5x10= 25mm reaches the retina and it's only the resolution of that 25mm proportion of the objective that is relevant. The Dawes limit for 25mm is 4.64" or about 2.4x better than the ISO standard for a x25 binocular.

Fortunately the effective resolution of most binoculars improve as it's effectively stopped down and may even approch the diffraction limit like Henry's Zeiss or the Kite Bonelli 2.0 I reviewed. However very few binoculars are that good.

Someone with a fairly typical 20/15 or 90" acuity potentially could see down to 9" with 10x magnification and 20/10 down to 6". It means that someone with average eyesight will comfortably exceed the the ISO standard of 11" for a 10x25 binocular. It explains why so many compact binoculars are rubbish, but there are exceptions of course. From my own stopped down measurements most x42 binoculars would exceed the acuity of users with 20/15 acuity but it's much more of a lottery for those with 20/10 vision.

So after that lengthy preamble, some reasons why restricting the objective diameter in bright conditions can be beneficial. Firstly, much of the stray light in the optical path originates at the periphery of the objective and stopping down will often block it and improve contrast. How much will depend on the design but I've seen a useful difference with a couple of Swaros.

The second reason follows on from that Watson paper on the target angle of view. As I mentioned before, even in fairly bright viewing conditions, the actual luminance in shaded areas can be low causing your pupil to dilate and your acuity to decrease. That paper illustrates that even a brightly lit target in front of that dark background will make little difference to your pupil diameter. You will still have reduced acuity and now the target itself will be over exposed or glarey. In that situation stopping down the objective can improve the level of detail you see several fold in particular situations but more often the benefit is more modest, but never the less, worthwhile. It's something I first noticed when positioning test charts at different locations round the garden and realised it had a practical benefit in normal use.

Hope that makes sense.

David
 
One can also see how CA influences contrast in pretty coarse detail also.

Kimmo


Hi Kimmo,

Yes, this experience has given me a new respect for longitudinal CA in binoculars. It's probably more important for image sharpness than I thought. Interesting to me how the magenta bars in the Swaro image lose their color and turn mostly black when I back up far enough from the computer screen. When the color fringes become too tiny to see as color they still seem to cause a monochromatic blur.

David,

121/D and 136/D sounds about right. The resolution between the two equalizes when they're stopped down to 22mm, but the image quality continues to look better through the Zeiss. That's something I've noticed before; higher aberrations show up as poorer image quality before measurable resolution is affected.

Ron,

I'm not surprised that you find the 8x30 Fujinon FMT-SX a sharpness standout. I have one I seldom even take off the shelf to look at. Recently I star tested it (maybe for the first time) along with a few other high end 8x30-32s. It had the lowest spherical and longitudinal chromatic aberrations of any of them. I would say spherical correction was better than 1/4 wave when stopped down to 24mm. I wonder if what looks like a long focal length (135mm?) cuts the CA and oversized prisms add just enough over-correction to the objective lenses under-correction for spherical to turn out about right.

Henry
 
I don't know if the focal length of the objectives and the focal ratio at full aperture and stopped down has been discussed enough here.
I would think that a very good 56mm aperture binocular stopped to 20mm would perform better than a 32mm or 20mm binocular at 20mm. If only because the focal length of the 56mm is much longer and stopped down it is much slower.
It depends on the overall design, the eyepieces and whether the objectives are doublets, triplets or 4 element.
There is a new Takahashi scope with a 5 element objective.
Lichtenknecker had 4 element objectives, which were supposedly near perfect.
 
Yes, the only reason the 8x56 FL is so much better than the little guys in daylight is the relatively high focal ratio when it's stopped down. At full aperture it's quite terrible, but stopped down to 30mm or smaller it's excellent. BTW, it has a 5 element objective: a fixed triplet and a moving focusing doublet instead of the usual singlet.
 
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I don't know if the focal length of the objectives and the focal ratio at full aperture and stopped down has been discussed enough here.
I would think that a very good 56mm aperture binocular stopped to 20mm would perform better than a 32mm or 20mm binocular at 20mm. If only because the focal length of the 56mm is much longer and stopped down it is much slower.
It depends on the overall design, the eyepieces and whether the objectives are doublets, triplets or 4 element.
There is a new Takahashi scope with a 5 element objective.
Lichtenknecker had 4 element objectives, which were supposedly near perfect.

Interesting point there.
I guess it's why Zeiss SF and Swaro 8x32 SV is quite long also.
Makes aberrations a bit easier to handle.
Or you can do like Kowa, use pure fluorite crystal.
 
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Yes, the only reason the 8x56 FL is so much better than the little guys is the relatively high focal ratio when it's stopped down. At full aperture it's quite terrible, but stopped down to 30mm or smaller it's excellent. BTW, it has a 5 element objective: a fixed triplet and a moving focusing doublet instead of the usual singlet.

"quite terrible"

That was a short but frank review...
;)
 
"quite terrible"

That was a short but frank review...
;)

I said the very same thing in a longer review when I first bought them back in 2007.

Last winter I had a chance to experience the full aperture in daylight through one eye after I had my left eye dilated by my ophthalmologist. It was very interesting to see just how terrible my own optics are with a 7mm aperture. The quality of the binocular hardly mattered, which I'm sure is something the designers of large exit pupil binoculars count on.

Henry
 
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Hi Henry.
Although the 8x56 FL has a 5 element objective, it will only be correctly computed for one separation of the focusing doublet and triplet.
It may actually be a compromise to best fit most separations.
Maksutov and other mirror telescopes//spotting scopes with moving primaries are also only correct for one separation of primary and secondary.
The Sigma 500mm f/4.5 mirror lens is only reasonably good at one distance. At other distances it is just bad.
So I just used it as a scope at its best separation and moved the eyepiece.
They were sold off at fire sale prices in the U.S.
The Nikon 500mm f/5 mirror lenses were better even though simpler.
 
Henry,

I too appreciated the perfect longitudinal red+blue=purple in the Swaro resolution chart picture. At the very least the it shows you were careful about centering. Some years back I measued the 30mm FMTR-SX (a 6x in that case) focal ratio at about f/5.

I wonder if the little Fujinon might have kept up with the giant, in this one way.

I've been rotating through all my binoculars lately to distinguish distant nighthawks, swifts, and swallows at evening dusk/twilight. The 10x56 FL is the best I've got for that. I figured it was a doublet + focusing singlet. Sheesh, no wonder...

Ron
 
Hi,

Alongside our other range of products, the Victory HT Binoculars will be showcased this year at Birdfair 2016 at Rutland Water, UK. We would be happy to talk about any queries or questions you have with them, just visit our stand. Our servicing team will also be on hand to assist too.

C James
www.zeiss.co.uk/birdfair
 
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