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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

The UK and optics prices (1 Viewer)

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paddy7

Well-known member
I'm not sure where this idea goes, but i thought i'd do it anyway....
Just after the Brexit vote, my brother was due to go to Japan on a martial arts programme, and was complaining of the rapidly diminishing exchange rate, pound to yen.
I had been considering the Kowa 883 package of body, eyepiece and case for £1999, and thought - with this news - i better act fast, before current stock ran out.
This turned out to be right, as i noticed this week the same package is now around £2500. So, i started checking other equipment i knew the price i paid, using just the one retailer, who generally reflects RRP.
The Zeiss 8x32FL is just under £1500, and the Swarovski ATS65 with eyepiece and case over £2000. The latter is £600 more than i paid, 5 years or so ago.
Following the thread relating to the new Zeiss 85mm and 95mm scope, we're looking at prices just under and just over three grand respectively.
The UK is perhaps one of the most concentrated markets for birding optics in the world, i would have thought, but - with wages pretty static - i would imagine there will be a time when the birders prepared to lay out that kind of money will be satiated. Even if they're not, is that slice of the market going to support the top range manufacturers for much longer?
This kind of relates to the 'death of the alpha' thread, as are those who aren't devoting their whole existence to birding going to continue to pay these kind of prices, or is this paradoxically just creating the market for the sub-£500 bins?
While exchange rates and fluctuating confidence in market futures may be at the root of it, could the Kowa set-up really have gone up by 25% in just over a year?
If Zeiss finally produce the 32mm SF, but the FL is £1500, what do you suppose the RRP will be? Got to be £1800 minimum at this rate, and then some...
This is not the kind of thread where a solution is sought, but i felt like i should get it off my chest (and onto someone else's, hopefully....)
 
Yes, you are right, The Brexit vote is not working out very well in many areas. This being a classic example.

Even worse, I'm finding, is that the shops are offering very depressed trade in values, e.g. Leica Ultravid BL 8x42, excellent condition and boxed for £300. So the increase in "value" of our current gear isn't being reflected.

Not sure what the used market is like, but there doesn't seem to be much incentive to upgrade at the moment. selling Used to purchase Used looks like my only option.

We haven't even left the EU/single market/customs union, is the chilling thought here.
 
I think that this could be a long haul but given optics are a discretionary purchase it will turn into a game of who blinks first IMO. There are very few who need the latest and best but if the desire to own alphas remains they will still buy, albeit perhaps deferring the purchase.

With regard to the used market perhaps dealers see this as an opportunity to increase margins i.e. buy low but sell a bit higher using increased prices as justification ?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
peter.jones said:
The Brexit vote is not working out very well in many areas. This being a classic example.

We haven't even left the EU/single market/customs union, is the chilling thought here.
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, here in the hinterlands of the EU, despite salaries being a fraction of those in the UK, prices are (and always have been) far higher than in the UK, pre-Brexit vote, post-Brexit vote, Sterling devaluation, whatever - still cheaper in the UK.

Example in the current day, i.e. after the devaluation of the UK pound.

Canon EOS 80D Digital SLR Camera Body:
- UK price (eg. WEX) - £948
- Lithuania price - £1130 (1240 euro)

Same goes for just about everything else too, optics, clothes, shoes, consumer products, ...

Roll on Brexit, hopefully out of the customs union I'll then be able to visit the UK and buy tax free :)
 
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I'm not really trying to apportion blame for this situation, or look to political decisions, manufacturer decisions or retailer decisions in this - i'm thinking more of how 'the market' (i.e. us) is likely to react - perhaps to some, higher prices just make an object more desirable, or more of a target...
When the HT/SF brothers came out, i know of a few birders who went for it (and i know quite a lot of birders). However, i've seen precious-little movement since. I don't know anyone with a Noctovid, for example. Most seem to be toting the Swaros, Zeiss and Leicas they've had round their neck for years. Mostly ELs, SLCs, FLs and BNs.
So what's going to tempt them, when they can sell their 10 year old optics for about £800 but have to shell out around £2000?
And if it's not them, who is it? These products are major manufacturer investments in design, production, marketing - a return on that must be anticipated through shipping large numbers. I just wonder if it will carry on happening, or if indeed there is a ceiling......
 
Whilst the wages for workers have stagnated, the current generation of retirees are better off than their predecessors. The majority of folk I see out and about with alphas and big white lenses are firmly in the retired camp.
 
From todays daily mail:
Selected paragraphs from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4811234/Printing-money-like-heroin-fix.html

Around £435billion has now been spent on so-called quantitative easing (QE) – but critics claim it has crushed returns on pension savings and fuelled a dangerous borrowing boom by lowering interest rates.
Yesterday, Lord MacPherson himself appeared to agree that it is time for the programme to come to an end

Quantitative easing was drawn up by Bank staff and Treasury mandarins when interest rates hit a then-record low of 0.5 per cent in March 2009.
The plan was to pump newly-created money into the financial system to keep the economy moving.
Permission for the programme is ultimately granted by the Chancellor.
Record-low interest rates are another factor at play in inflating what many see as a dangerous bubble.
The Bank slashed rates to an all-time low of 0.25 per cent following last year’s referendum, prompting plunges in mortgage rates and fierce competition in the credit card market.
But Britain never even came close to the recession this was meant to guard against, leading many to question its wisdom.



In effect. The Bank of England and Government have been devaluing the pound.

And its blamed on Brexit! Never QE.


 
Interesting.

But I would argue:

If all there was was one UK pound and one Euro.
£1 = 1 Euro
Print another £1 with nothing to back it up, then 1 euro = £2
Isn't that whats been done?
Am I just thick for thinking that?
 
Most countries currency devalues with time.
All are printing money.
Sometimes other countries like N.K. help it along by printing other countries notes.
Plus home grown fakes.

My friends abroad used to ask me how much a pound of roubles were worth.

Look at Turkey. I think a million became one new unit eventually.

Some cases have been billions to one.

In addition there is a hidden inflation. It used to be about 2.5% here, but probably less now with such low interest rates.

Then we had Harold Wilson promising us that the pound in our pockets was the same after 14% devaluation.

I remember 4 dollars to a pound possibly even 5? Then $2.80. $2.40. Sometimes near parity.

After WW2 we were nearly bankrupt.

My first wage was £6 a week.

Currencies are traded on a daily basis with fluctuating values. Sometimes these are rigged by dealers or by a countries rulers.

Incidentally, I think that few binoculars keep a value in line with inflation. Eventually one loses. Even if one gets a binocular free, it has to be stored and looked after, which costs money over time.

I suppose the best things are free like fresh air, but even that is becoming hard to find.
 
To the original poster: I think things like top-end scopes and Noctivids etc will always be owned by quite a small minority of birders. A Zeiss Harpia, or a Swarovski 95mm/BTX combination, amazing though the latter is (I didn't look through the Zeiss product at Birdfair) is about as unlikely to be in my future as Kate Upton. If I'm not wrong, though, this always was the case - in the old days those who couldn't afford Zeiss West Dialyts went for Zeiss Jenas, Swifts and so on. But today's second or third tier equivalents offer a lot more.
 
I would suggest that you have a look at some of the other articles on the site that I linked to and tp this site: http://www.progressivepulse.org/economics/the-duopoly-of-money-creation/

I admit this is getting waaaayyyy off topic but, given the nonsense that politicians of all parties talk and their obvious lack of knowledge regarding economics I've found them worthwhile - if a bit heavy going at times; and i have to admit I don't always understand some of it myself.


Brexit ~ Noun

The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.
 
Indeed. As the second tier closes in in terms of simple usability and optical quality, there could be more decisions based on 'what i need' rather than 'what i'd like.' There will always be buyers for the top-of-the-range, as there will always be those who can spend 3 grand in the way i'd spend £150.

However, whereas a few years back £2000 would have been the ceiling for most alpha gear, it now seems to be £3000 and upwards for top-line scopes.
I would regard 'tier two' binoculars to be around the £800-£900 region (where they may still be) which is still quite a financial wrench for most folks.
Perhaps Zeiss has been very astute in presenting equipment into that second tier themselves (Conquest for example); after all, it is the presence of HT/SF that contributes to 'second-tier' even being a recognisable expression....

I think at the back of mind mind is the notion of optics as tools; as with other tools, i look for functional, robust, uncomplicated and easy-to-use, fairly problem-free, bearing in mind i'm going to be taking them to mucky places in terrible weather quite often. And try not to leave them on the roof of my car. I'm not sure i could take the same approach if i spent £2000 (even though i'm sure the bins would be up to it). Thus this is all about 'market psychology' and how you regard your optical gear rather than the reasons why we are where we are, price-wise.
 
paddy7 said:
I had been considering the Kowa 883 package of body, eyepiece and case for £1999, and thought - with this news - i better act fast, before current stock ran out.
This turned out to be right, as i noticed this week the same package is now around £2500. ...)
Click to expand...

The pound has devalued about 18% against the Euro since the referendum was announced. Add that to your Kowa's £2000 and you get nearly £2400...

Lee
 
There you go then. Wages, of course, have generally not risen, and presumably many other things risen in price (including foreign birding trips).
I know which way my 'market psychology' is heading! I shall rid myself of the demon avarice.....o:D
 
jgraider said:
Imagine that.......the high cost of socialism demands higher prices/taxes. Who would've guessed?
Click to expand...

This is a binoculars forum JG so we shouldn't stray too far but I can't resist asking: what has socialism got to do with the UK leaving the European Union? By the way I didn't vote for Brexit.

Lee
 
Ok - one further thought based on my previous post:
With the Conquest, Zeiss may have - intentionally or not - provided a second-tier alternative to their flagship models in the Conquest, and further down, the Terra range. They have perhaps consolidated a position here against the potentially erratic UK/European currency relationship. Although percentage changes in exchange rates would apply across the board, 5% of £700 does not appear as dramatic as 5% of £1600.
If - and it is still a big IF - the top-end product sales start tailing off in the UK, may we see other alpha brands looking to enter the second-tier market?
Just a thought....
 
paddy7 said:
Ok - one further thought based on my previous post:
With the Conquest, Zeiss may have - intentionally or not - provided a second-tier alternative to their flagship models in the Conquest, and further down, the Terra range. They have perhaps consolidated a position here against the potentially erratic UK/European currency relationship. Although percentage changes in exchange rates would apply across the board, 5% of £700 does not appear as dramatic as 5% of £1600.
If - and it is still a big IF - the top-end product sales start tailing off in the UK, may we see other alpha brands looking to enter the second-tier market?
Just a thought....
Click to expand...

Paddy

This has already happened. See the Leica Trinovids and Swarovski's CL 8x30 Companion. And it is not surprising when you look at the product range from brands like Nikon, Opticron etc who offer models at a number of price points.

Also note that the UK is not the only market in the world and the bulk of the USA market is at $500 or less.

Lee
 
jgraider said:
Imagine that.......the high cost of socialism demands higher prices/taxes. Who would've guessed?
Click to expand...

I love the way some Americans spit out the word "socialism" like it's a pejorative. The fact is that the UK is one of, if not the least, socialistic of the EU member states; and a pretty large proportion of the country would consider that the wholesale and uncritical (at least by our craven decision-makers and politicians) importation of devil take the hindmost capitalism direct from Wall Street has contributed more by far to the country's ills than any attempts at socialism (which are generally well thought of here). Germany operates on a more socialist basis than the UK and has its own issues but is a very successful country, and not just economically.

Second tier and even third tier binoculars from alpha brands aren't something new - Zeiss had its Diafuns and Swarovski, if I remember rightly, used to produce a series called "Falke" that were a step down from the Habicht range. I would guess that the tier(s) below "alpha" class have always made up the great majority of binocular sales, even to birders. (Edit: I have just checked a survey in British Birds magazine from 1983 and only 24.7% of 671 respondents - probably a more dedicated group of birders than most - owned the alphas of the day). It seems the competition in the tier below is hotter than ever before and that is very much a good thing. There are binoculars that offer probably 90 to 95% the performance of say a Zeiss SF at half the price or less; you could argue that's not a bad bargain.
 
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