do some birders look down on others? (1 Viewer)

Have you ever had the feeling that some birders think they are far too good or elite to bother with the normal person who views birding as a hobby?
You know the type. We have them in all walks of life,
but I personnally find it strange in a hobby such as ours.
It appears to me that they think their street cred will be damaged if they are seen to be mixing with your average birder, rather than the clicquey, elitest group they think they belong to.
What is a sereous birder? Probably someone who has seen more birds than anyone else - today, this week, this year? Well, I say so what? Big deal. Fantastic. You think I care?
Do you really think I care if your digiscoping is better than Mr Average? I have to tell you I would rather meet someone keen and enthusiatic who gets it wrong than Mr I've seen every bird there is and I've got the latest digiscope camera, with double sprung springleheads and overcam wafters.
No, for me it's the birder who has time for everyone, not just someone who can take a picture of an ant from half a mile away. For me it's the person who goes out and is happy with seeing a lapwing and takes pleasure in finding it and talking about it, not the man who goes out and tramples over the lapwing nest to get to something else.
What, you ask, brought on this rant? Well, I'll tell you. I had an e mail from a birder who said 'great web site', then asked if I could set up a forum for the more serious birder? I replied, asking him what he meant. He then wrote saying that, although the forums were great, he didnt think he could contribute because he is well known and respected in the birding world and was worried that people in his own club might comment adversely. He then asked if he should use a different name.
I find this attitude very sad and, in all honesty, pathetic. I explained that Birdforum is for all and as far as I was concerned anyone who enjoys birds or wildlife could contribute. I told him there are other sites and newsgroups that he could contribute to anonymously, but that viewers can't see everyones post as they can here and he would have to put up with nonsense from know-alls, so called experts, and serial posters. I also told him that we have some very well known people as contributors, who appear to be normal and not on a pedestal. I await his reply and will keep you all informed.
I admire very much the photographers we have on the site. Their pictures are truly magnificent. I also admire the people who post about their backyard, their sea trips, sightings from their area. In fact, anyone who has made a contribution. Even the jokes in Ruffled are funny, other than one or two
I just get a tad annoyed when some birders think they are better than others and look down on the rest of us. I'm here to tell you the rest of us far outnumber the elitests, and we can all learn something from each other.

Discuss.

Steve

You've hit the nail right on the head steve!
I've lost count of the times i've sat in a hide in silence, even when it's full!!
You try and make conversation with some people and you can tell by the way they answer that they just don't want to know.
They're so wrapped up in their own little world of serious birding that unless some of their ilk are present they more or less snub everyone.
If you enter the hide and say hello you may just get a grunt in reply if you're lucky.
Mind you I wouldn't call myself lucky to receive that grunt because as far as i'm concerned they're the losers.
As you say they don't take pleasure in the 'ordinary' birds, it's got to be something scarce or special and because of that I think they've lost something.
I meet some very nice people when out birding but the 'greater than thou grumps' do put a damper on things!
Now look what you've done, you've started me off!!
By the way, birding from hides is my least favourite form of birding. I wonder why!

paj

The Elite

Here!Here! That's my sentiments exactly. Glad you knew how to phrase it so it wasn't censored. That's one reason I bird alone . I also stay away from the local "clubs".

Maybe we should form our own club Dave!
It could be called 'The Happy Birders Club' open to all, serious and hobby birders alike, just as long as they don't take themselves too seriously.

paj :t:

Thanks, Steve for sticking up for the significant, enthusiastic, newbie birders that have joined this forum and have contributed through their postings.

Hip, Hip, Hurrah!! (or in bird language: cheep, cheep, cheep!!)

^Wings^ (a fledgling birder taken under wing)

o

I have found much the same reaction amongst birders. I must admit that I always make the effort to talk to others whilst out and about. I often find the conversation can be mutually beneficial and it's always interesting to find how they will react. Usually I get a grunted reply, certainly as an initial reaction, but most get quite chatty with perseverance. I think peple must have gotten into the habit of not talking. Recently whilst staying in Aviemore on a week's birding holiday we met the same chap three times during the week. First time in a hide when he grunted a 'hello', next time a pleasant hello and on the last day of our visit he turned out to be a right chatterbox. It's a shame he wasn't like that to start off with as he was quite knowledgeable on the area.
Last week I came across a mist netter, with whom I ended up spending quite a while. It was one of the most interesting birding exchanges I have had in years

well said. in my experience, most clubs have some members who have seen all there is to see ( in their opinion ). birding snobs who should know better. give me an enthusistic beginner who gets a buzz from seeing the likes of a long-tailed tit or some other ' common' bird:t:

I have experinced this "clique" mentality when I was starting out 10+ years ago,and have to say that I found it off-putting.I kept at it,however,and many of the birders that looked down on me as an inexperienced teenager have now become friends of mine(and quite a few of them have gained ticks as a result of birds that I've found!)
I find that many real experts are very polite and accomodating to birders of all levels of experience(for example,I have always found Killian to be approachable),but unfortunately there are always some oddballs.While I would count myself as a mad keen birder(not an expert,but competent enough),I always try to have a chat with less experienced birders/"dudes",as I remember the old days!
Each to their own,we're all interested in birds at the end of the day!

Had to read this one Steve, then go away and think about it.

What is a serious birder.?

Judging by the quality of the vast majority of pics sent in to the forum I would say the owners were serious. Judging by the contributers who make regular Sunday walks I would say they were also serious. I think the content of many of the postings illustrating an in depth knowledge of the subject shows those too are serious.

I think it best your contact remains anonymous. I reckon his cred has already dropped about as low as it can go!

burhinus

I decided to get into digiscoping and treated myself to a nice scope, camera & accessories. I've got the kit but I am quite open about my lack of birding knowledge, and am enjoying learning.

On a couple of occassions I've been out 'in the field' and been approached by birders - they've been quite friendly to me as they check out my kit, but once I open my mouth they realise that I'm a newbie they seem to be a bit 'cold' towards me.This has happened a couple of times. These people however, are totally outnumbered (in my limited experience) by friendly people willing to chat and give me pointers/advice.

The reason I like this site is because everyone seems friendly and do not snub me because i don't know what I'm doing (yet).

Dylan.

Billy wrote:

"give me an enthusistic beginner who gets a buzz from seeing the likes of a long-tailed tit or some other ' common' bird"


That'll be me then Billy
:t:

In my years birding, I would have to say the good far out way the bad!! On twitches I have made friends and have some times been blown away by the knowledge of some birders, but the odd time.... birders have tried to get too close, for photo's e.t.c and have been boo'd at by others.Or have caused concern for locals, but then many locals find crowds of adults running around with scopes and bins, funny and interesting and are always spoken to in a friendly manner and take there turn looking through a spare scope.The person you spoke of, is very much in the minority and I guess you get prats in all walks of life :t:

I hate it when I go somewhere biding, and there are a few other birders there. I'm always polite, and just ask whether there's anything interesting around, and I'm ALWAYS met with a grumbling 'no' or 'not much' or sometimes I even get no response at all.

Perhaps it's only round here though. When I was in Cornwall, the few birders I did meet were really helpful - showing me where the best birds were, and not being the greatest ID specialist in the world, they even pointed out a few ducks to me, which I would have otherwise not had a clue about - even with Flegg's Guide permanently open!

Sometimes wish I hadn't moved from Kent.

:-C

While I agree that the English birder is a rather serious animal and often very shy, I would like to share with you all an American experience.

Three years ago I was lucky enough to get a project which required regular visits to California, once I had sorted out the work side of life, I started to explore the San Francisco Bay area at weekends. One grey Sunday I went to a place called Pigeon Point a sea watching place in San Mateo County, about 50 miles south of San Francisco. There was another birder there (about 7:30 a.m.) and with usual British reserve I took my place about 10 yards away (so as not to enter personal space etc.) after about half an hour of fairly slow birding (we have all been there sea watching) my silent partner calls out a feeding frenzy of sea birds about 3 miles out to sea. I am impressed that even with a scope he could make out these small objects, but then starts to real off 4 lifers for me in the flock. About 10 minutes later and with eyes as big as plates from straining through my scope I withdraw from the scanning. Once the ice is broken we talk about just about everything under the sun and for the next 12 hours I am privilaged to tag along with a legend in the local birding community. Following his car, we visit about 10 great sites and he introduces me to 14 lifers and a day list of 64 species on a grey February day, plus an interesting encounter with a county sherif who wasn't to sure about bird watchers! wandering around quiet county lanes in the middle of nowhere. Even in the US the birder is not your typical member of society, that is until the ice is broken!

I must admit what my overall American (West coast) experiences were quiet amazing, as other birders would even flag you down when driving (erraticly with bins around your neck or leaning out of the window, parked on blind bend, or generally making a health hazard of yourself to other road users!) to exchange information and provide advice.

I think its a question of space, here in the UK there are just too many people/birders/dog walkers and just not enough space so we are generally desperately seeking to find a lonely spot either in the landscape or our minds. In other countries birders are just glad to meet a kindred spirit.

Each to ther own - Good birding

Paul

an American view

Thanks for sharing that great story, Paul! This whole thread has been fascinating to read, and you've motivated me to share my viewpoint.

I live 10 minutes drive from Cornell University's Laboratory of Ornithology. If you haven't heard of it, let me just say it's big-time! I'm talking PROFESSIONAL birders!

Up until the time my 2 sons grew up and moved out, i'd been just a casual birder and list-keeper. Then i started making excursions specifically to see birds. I got serious binoculars and several field guides, and i joined a couple local birding-oriented email listserves.

As i started having contact with other birders, i was amazed at how friendly and helpful the vast majority of them were -- and still are. Sightings are called out. "Did you see...?" "Have you seen...?" Those with scopes almost always offer a look when there's something interesting in view. I'm not shy about asking for confirmation of an i.d. i'm doubtful about in the field, and i've never received a rude answer. A couple years ago, i decided that a nonbreeding-plummaged shore bird i'd seen was a Wilson's Phalarope, and the experienced birders who questioned me closely about it (because it's a western bird and they wanted to go see such a rarity in central New York) never acted like i didn't know what i was talking about. Even though i WAS wrong.

Don't get me wrong. It's not always lovely and wonderful. But i can usually convince myself, if someone is less than nice and helpful, that it's only because he's a scientist and primarily left-brained! But really, everybody has a different personality and that's going to have quite a lot to do with it.

You know, when my husband and i were in the UK 5 years ago, i didn't get the chance to meet any other birders like i wanted to. But we were GREATLY impressed by how friendly and helpful people were. Even in London, people were generally courteous. (You don't find that to be the case in New York City, let me tell you!) When we were standing on the street in York, turning our map this way and that, an elderly lady in a motorized cart came over, saying, "Are you lost? Can i help you?" Strangers were always being nice like that. I WANT TO GO BACK!!!!!

I'll stop now. Sorry's this is so long!
Sylvia

p.s. We were at Pigeon Point also, Paul, just for a short while in May of 2000. What a great place!

Well I look down upon most birders.....mainly because I'm 6ft 4inch
The birding class sytem in the U.K. ( and to some extent other N. European countries) is totally at odds with what I have witnessed in N. America....where those with the knowledge seem eager to share it and not be-little novices, although there are experienced but generous U.K. birders.

Andy B,
A happy 'dude'

As you are 6ft 4 inch, must be an advantage on a Scilly Twitch!! on a more serious note, how about a bird forum birding day somewhere in the UK so that all these UK cyber birders can go analogue for a while?

Maybe a new year weekend in Norfolk or something similar to kick start 2003, what do you all think??

Paul

Birdforum.net beano

Hey Paul, great idea.....my girlfriend and I have just booked a cottage near Sherringham for the week starting 4th Jan. Perhaps we can have a mass 'dude' invasion of Cley 3 or a bird forum.net fitness contest involving a run along Blakeney point (laden down with scopes et al).....may lose a few members though.
Any others interested in a meet?
Andy B

I'm glad to see a dude 'outing' movement starting in the UK, remember those sun glasses so that we can recognize each other along with our state of the art digi-scopes, swarovski bins and scopes, in the bright winter sunshine.

Sounds like a good idea though and its always a great start to the year on the North Norfolk coast, off course our continental and new world friends are more than welcome.

Fancy a morning dip in the North Sea!!! otherwise its the beach cafe at Cley, but it's probably closed at that time of the year!

If this gets serious we'll arrange an evening at one of the local hostelry's to provide the right atmoshere and ambience for web weary birders to relax and imbibe.

Good night and sweet dreams

Paul

The more I read of you all, the more I like you. I am in good company here.Cheers!