perterra
Well-known member
I see a slight difference, but couldnt swear to it being green
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I do not like green cast and ham - 10x alpha redux (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cyclist
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I see a slight difference, but couldnt swear to it being green
elkcub
Silicon Valley, California
- Color perception of mixed frequencies is not in 1:1 relationship with pure spectral values (see below).
- Each human has a different spectral sensitivity, which were averaged when 'standard' sensitivity functions were first derived.
- Source lighting is not standardized or controlled except in a laboratory.
- Photographic results vary with the algorithms used in different cameras.
- (etc.)
Gijs' and Allbinos' spectra show isolated (i.e., pure) frequency responses (in 5 nm bins), and they also differ.
Photos show pictures of many frequencies integrated by camera algorithms.
Screen displays render colors differently (mine happens to be an Apple Cinema).
Binoculars couple to observer's eyes, all of which are different, and result in different perceptions.
I don't happen to see green in any of the photos shown above. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't see a green bias if I were to look through different Zeiss/Swaro binoculars — or it might be a blue bias, or reddish. That also doesn't mean that you would see the same color bias as I do when looking through identical binoculars, and all bets are off if we're looking through different binoculars.
Then, of course, we haven't even considered 'powers of suggestion,' and 'perceptual adaptation' (i.e., color constancy).
My conclusion is that it's a good thing there's more than one brand to choose from. :smoke:
Ed
henry link
Well-known member
Ed,
That part surprises me. Try the crops below. They're the same ones as above, but this time on a dark ground. The camera algorithms are identical for all.
Henry
Attachments
mfunnell
Registered Confuser
Well, looking at the photos (including Henry's most recent) on different screens:
- I don't see the green cast on two different uncalibrated laptop monitors (on one of them I see a decidedly red-ish cast on both sides)
- I do see the green cast with a colour-calibrated Ezio monitor
- I also see a green cast, though less so, on an iPhone 4S screen.
I'd be interested to know if Ed's screen is colour-calibrated.
...Mike
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Nice review, and interesting discussion. FWIW, I do see green, actually more yellow green to me, in Henry's photos.
A much stronger color effect is seen viewing the color of light reflected back from the front of a binocular. The color of light getting through is what remains after reflection takes its toll on color transmission.
I have a cheapie with the much scoundrelized "ruby" coating. It is amazing to look at grass through this thing, miscollimation and everything else aside; it looks like green fire! I suppose that since the eye is not very sensitive to blue, the effective complement to red is green. I suppose further that since the cheapie's interior coatings don't amount to much, its color presentation is dominated by this first objective surface effect, said to have been created merely as a jazzy selling point by the haters, or to make a brown deer stand out from green background by the lovers (but isn't everything brown in deer season?).
Since the advent of T*, Zeiss objective reflections have been red. One might hope that Zeiss, in its wisdom, would balance out the net color transmission by skillfully manipulating the wavelenghths of reflections deeper within, but judging from these photos and also common visual impressions, one would be disappointed.
Which-all, I find sort of amusing, in the similarities between the lowest and the most highly exhalted. Red reflected off the the front, what do you expect huh? Swaro ELs reflect more yellow green. My old Fujinon FMT-SX 7x50 reflects a pure green from every surface visible from the front, including the prisms. What do you make of that?
Fortunately I don't often much notice color bias in binoculars, except how fall colors look so "gold of the day" beautiful in a Leica.
Ron
A much stronger color effect is seen viewing the color of light reflected back from the front of a binocular. The color of light getting through is what remains after reflection takes its toll on color transmission.
I have a cheapie with the much scoundrelized "ruby" coating. It is amazing to look at grass through this thing, miscollimation and everything else aside; it looks like green fire! I suppose that since the eye is not very sensitive to blue, the effective complement to red is green. I suppose further that since the cheapie's interior coatings don't amount to much, its color presentation is dominated by this first objective surface effect, said to have been created merely as a jazzy selling point by the haters, or to make a brown deer stand out from green background by the lovers (but isn't everything brown in deer season?).
Since the advent of T*, Zeiss objective reflections have been red. One might hope that Zeiss, in its wisdom, would balance out the net color transmission by skillfully manipulating the wavelenghths of reflections deeper within, but judging from these photos and also common visual impressions, one would be disappointed.
Which-all, I find sort of amusing, in the similarities between the lowest and the most highly exhalted. Red reflected off the the front, what do you expect huh? Swaro ELs reflect more yellow green. My old Fujinon FMT-SX 7x50 reflects a pure green from every surface visible from the front, including the prisms. What do you make of that?
Fortunately I don't often much notice color bias in binoculars, except how fall colors look so "gold of the day" beautiful in a Leica.
Ron
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Gijs van Ginkel
Well-known member
Wow folks, you have been very busy while I enjoyed a very nice sleep, so Iam now stuck with a car load of reactions.
First Henry, you did a lot of work to educate us. However in your post 11, 14 and 23 I did not see any green at all.
Ed, post 22: I think that you tackled most of the problems with regard to color perception and color reproduction. I can add one. At the time that we had only monocular microscopes, we observed that some students developed different color perceptions between the two eyes, perhaps since one of the eyes had been exposed for a longer period of time to higher light intensities.
Another problem is the ageing eye, which develops a yellow bias because of the yellowing process occurring in the lens
Cycleguy, post 20,
I have to do other work today, but I will look at your question regarding the SLC and the Companion and come back to you.
Jremmons, post 12,
The Zeiss Victory FL 7x42 shows a slight red bias when checked with my eyes. Some call it a warm image impression, which is liked by some, while others do not like it, it is a matter of taste. The color impression can be explained by a relatively high transmission in the red as compared to blue transmission, what we actually observed.
Somthing that is worthwile to mention perhaps is the following: binocular producers use an ISO standard for color reproduction and to my knowldge the ones I know do comply with it to the best of their ability.
Gijs van Ginkel
First Henry, you did a lot of work to educate us. However in your post 11, 14 and 23 I did not see any green at all.
Ed, post 22: I think that you tackled most of the problems with regard to color perception and color reproduction. I can add one. At the time that we had only monocular microscopes, we observed that some students developed different color perceptions between the two eyes, perhaps since one of the eyes had been exposed for a longer period of time to higher light intensities.
Another problem is the ageing eye, which develops a yellow bias because of the yellowing process occurring in the lens
Cycleguy, post 20,
I have to do other work today, but I will look at your question regarding the SLC and the Companion and come back to you.
Jremmons, post 12,
The Zeiss Victory FL 7x42 shows a slight red bias when checked with my eyes. Some call it a warm image impression, which is liked by some, while others do not like it, it is a matter of taste. The color impression can be explained by a relatively high transmission in the red as compared to blue transmission, what we actually observed.
Somthing that is worthwile to mention perhaps is the following: binocular producers use an ISO standard for color reproduction and to my knowldge the ones I know do comply with it to the best of their ability.
Gijs van Ginkel
Sometimes I think I can see a difference and then minutes later I look and am not sure. Would hesitate to say it is green, when I perceive it at all it just looks very very very slightly less bright.
Fascinating stuff, thank for setting this up Henry.
Lee
Fascinating stuff, thank for setting this up Henry.
Lee
Holger Merlitz
Well-known member
Interesting discussion! I see the slight green tinge in Henry's photos. In particular: When I first looked through the 10x42 SF, I immediately saw green and was a bit surprised - it was more obvious to me than Henry's pictures suggest. On the other hand, I do not see the reddish tint that the Nikon EII is supposed to show. I guess it is all about individual color perception rather than sample variation.
Cheers,
Holger
Cheers,
Holger
henry link
Well-known member
Try this one Gijs. The same three crops (unaltered background in the center, 8x54 HT left, 8x56 FL right), with the color saturation dialed up to the maximum in iPhoto.
Henry
Attachments
Wow. It really goes to show how different we see things. Clear difference for me.
Rich
Rich
FrankD
Well-known member
I can see green/duller blue in all but the full binocular photos. I say "green/duller blue" specifically because it could be interpreted either way. If I hadn't read this thread before looking at the comparison pic then I would say the one in the middle is a brighter blue while the two outside are a less saturated or duller blue color. I guess when you introduce some green into the blue then you would get the noticed effect.
Hi,
thanks for the interesting experiment, Henry and to everybody else for the discussion.
I have had a quick look at the image in post #14 (I could see a difference without problems on my monitor and phone) and took the rgb values for ten random points in each color field. It looks to me that the middle field is indeed not a neutral gray but quite bluish R90G104/B125 on average. Left field was R90G104B117 and right field was R93G107B119.
I'm not sure if it would be overly simplistic to use the middle image to calculate a correction factor to a neutral gray with R105G105B105 for each color channel and apply this to the left and right images. When doing this I get R105G105B98 for the left image and R109G108B100 for the right image, for whatever it's worth...
Joachim
thanks for the interesting experiment, Henry and to everybody else for the discussion.
I have had a quick look at the image in post #14 (I could see a difference without problems on my monitor and phone) and took the rgb values for ten random points in each color field. It looks to me that the middle field is indeed not a neutral gray but quite bluish R90G104/B125 on average. Left field was R90G104B117 and right field was R93G107B119.
I'm not sure if it would be overly simplistic to use the middle image to calculate a correction factor to a neutral gray with R105G105B105 for each color channel and apply this to the left and right images. When doing this I get R105G105B98 for the left image and R109G108B100 for the right image, for whatever it's worth...
Joachim
mfunnell
Registered Confuser
I see that [post #29], but more aqua-green-y, purple-y, blue to the left and right, and blue-purple-with-redish blotches in the centre.
Actually, whatever the colour, I see blotches.
I suspect that iPhoto may not be doing you any favours here, Henry.
...Mike
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That's great Henry. Regarding the picture on post# 29, I see Greenish blue, Light Blue, Greenish blue in that order. I would even say that the pic on the left has a slightly more green cast. All three have some blotches in the photos. The color cast looks slightly different on my phone, but I see the green, blue, green clearly. If some people don't see any Green at all I can say is WOW! It shouldn't really come as a surprise that we all see things differently.
So any review about how some saw a warm tone of this color or that color should be taken into consideration with the understanding that color bias is inherent in most people and they may not even notice it. An if any one is myopic depending upon the eye glasses used that might add some color to what is really seen. WOW again.
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GLOBETROTTER
Well-known member
Nice sample.
The picture shows exactly what i saw with the SF binoculars, the same degree of green.
I wear normal plastic multicoated glasses.
When looking at candle flames there is a strong colour shift, but I cannot remember what. Possibly yellow to blue.
So I took my glasses off and went close to the small laptop screen, out of focus.
Blue central image, slight blue grey outer panels.
But glasses back on and I see broad stripes left panel and broad striped blotches right panel and fairly even central panel.
But this is an old computer. Old eyes.
When looking at candle flames there is a strong colour shift, but I cannot remember what. Possibly yellow to blue.
So I took my glasses off and went close to the small laptop screen, out of focus.
Blue central image, slight blue grey outer panels.
But glasses back on and I see broad stripes left panel and broad striped blotches right panel and fairly even central panel.
But this is an old computer. Old eyes.
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Ed,
Thanks for presenting the article and your rather comprehensive synopsis of colour and perception, particularly as it relates to light spectra :t:
All I have to do now is figure out how all of that relates to my two different colour cast seeing eyes (one golden orangish, the other bluey-greenish), my transition lens eyeglasses and Mr Magoo-like myopia! |:d|
I do hope that Zeiss haven't messed with the HT formula, as that is one of the most neutral, nicely, realistically saturated, 'clarity' possessing views I have seen -- Zeiss could do worse than make the SF follow suit .....
Chosun :gh:
Every photo Henry did has a greenish tint. It is easily seen. Maybe it comes from the fluorite glass Zeiss uses to control CA. Fluorite is green.
I have had many Zeiss FL's in the past and I have always observed a very slight green tinge and in Leica's and Nikon's I have always seen a slight reddish tinge color cast and really just thought that was a characteristic of that brand. The Leica's have a warm reddish color saturated image. That is one reason why I have preferred Swarovski's like Cyclist over the years because to me they had better clarity and color rendition than the others. The Swarovski's color rendition is neutral in general and they don't add any off colors. I guess when I look at a bird I want to see his "True Colors" unhindered by some greenish or reddish tint. I wonder if the members that don't see the greenish tint in their Zeiss SF's have ever compared them side by side with a neutral binocular like the Swarovski. Like Cyclist said if he hadn't compared them with the Swarovski's he would have been satisfied with the Zeiss SF's. You could become very used to a binoculars color rendition and never even realize you are not really seeing a true white but instead a greenish tinge without side by siding the binoculars. Kind of like when you think your old TV has a great picture until you get a new UHD one.
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#hl=en&q=true+colors+song
I have had many Zeiss FL's in the past and I have always observed a very slight green tinge and in Leica's and Nikon's I have always seen a slight reddish tinge color cast and really just thought that was a characteristic of that brand. The Leica's have a warm reddish color saturated image. That is one reason why I have preferred Swarovski's like Cyclist over the years because to me they had better clarity and color rendition than the others. The Swarovski's color rendition is neutral in general and they don't add any off colors. I guess when I look at a bird I want to see his "True Colors" unhindered by some greenish or reddish tint. I wonder if the members that don't see the greenish tint in their Zeiss SF's have ever compared them side by side with a neutral binocular like the Swarovski. Like Cyclist said if he hadn't compared them with the Swarovski's he would have been satisfied with the Zeiss SF's. You could become very used to a binoculars color rendition and never even realize you are not really seeing a true white but instead a greenish tinge without side by siding the binoculars. Kind of like when you think your old TV has a great picture until you get a new UHD one. https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#hl=en&q=true+colors+song
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