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AOS to discard patronyms in English names (2 Viewers)

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I'll save you some time: it's a "poll" of a comment thread on one article. It's a garbage methodology by someone who appears to have no awareness of how internet comments work.
Wow...what an absolute garbage paper. The idea that anyone would think the COMMENTS SECTION of a popular newspaper would at all represent a nonbiased sample of individuals is ridiculous. I've had undergrads who could point out the problems of this study.
 
On patronyms and NACC

I would like to generally support what NACC are doing in getting rid of patronyms; I would prefer a more careful reduction programme, but aiming high might achieve something more akin to that. There may be a woke-ism agenda around that sparked some of this, with McCown and a few other names. But I think the fundamental point is a different one - birds or species don't really "belong" to people or individuals. They have morphological features and inhabit geographies or have habits, behaviours or songs after which they should where possible be named.

Sometimes, when cryptic species are split, it becomes difficult to come up with short English names which match a particular feature. Those in favour of patronyms, like a lot of legacy AOS people, might say that "Venezuelan Flycatcher" is no good, because several flycatchers occur in Venezuela and the species in question also occurs over the border in western Brazil. However, that name informs the observer so much more about the bird then "Ornithologist's Flycatcher".

You then have situations like that with Pallas, whose 1700s explorations in Russia I much appreciate, but who does not need a Sandgrouse and a Gull and a Bunting and a Rosefinch (and maybe some other things I can't think of right now) all named after him.

On the other hand, we can't have a total ban on patronyms surely, since so many geographical areas that often define species ranges or where many species occur are themselves named after people - America, Bolivia, Colombia, many Saints (Kitts, Nevis, Helena), the Magdalena river, Wallacea.

Then we have the whole imperialism/global North thing - most patronym bird names in S America, Africa and Asia bear the names of western persons, many of whom were museum curators who received skins and described stuff, but never set foot in the relevant continents or countries; or sponsors honored by those who did, disconnecting the names of birds from the people who observe them locally. This is not so relevant to North America, so it's interesting that NACC is taking a lead over this and SACC generally have done the opposite and been pro-patronym, including very pro-global-North-patronyms.

There is then the astonishing self interest of those objecting to this initiative - ornithologists objecting to the practice of honoring ornithologists in bird names. Several members of AOS-SACC have voted in favour of Latin or English language patronyms honoring themselves, in the past! I applaud those on NACC who are supporting this initiative, since they are taking steps against their own self-interest (and the self-interest of their profession in general) in pursuit of a valid policy goal.

I would support finding alternative names where possible which link birds with their morphology, behaviour or geographies. And maybe having a limit of one patronym per individual as a start. And a rule like we have with UK postage stamps - you can't have a bird patronym unless you are dead already. We should consider that for Latin names too. I've established and recommended adopting some patronyms before, so this is something on which I have changed my mind.

TD
 
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Then we have the whole imperialism/global North thing - most patronym bird names in S America, Africa and Asia bear the names of western persons, many of whom were museum curators who received skins and described stuff, but never set foot in the relevant continents or countries; or sponsors honored by those who did, disconnecting the names of birds from the people who observe them locally. This is not so relevant to North America, so it's interesting that NACC is taking a lead over this and SACC generally have done the opposite and been pro-patronym, including very pro-global-North-patronyms.
Regarding the first paragraph. Please stop right now to patronize people from S. America, Africa, and Asia. They have their own culture, background, and language, so let them talk as they want, not as you, better-white human, consider they should. Do you think you are better than them and can take decisions for them, but am sorry to tell you, you aren't.
 
Regarding the first paragraph. Please stop right now to patronize people from S. America, Africa, and Asia. They have their own culture, background, and language, so let them talk as they want, not as you, better-white human, consider they should. Do you think you are better than them and can take decisions for them, but am sorry to tell you, you aren't.
??

This paper touches a bit on bird names in this context:

Neotropical ornithology: Reckoning with historical assumptions, removing systemic barriers, and reimagining the future

I speak only for myself. I speak also for the trees, for the trees have no tongues. And I am asking you, sir, at the top of my lungs, to take it easy...
 
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On patronyms and NACC

Thomas,
As I understand things, the NACC is in no way responsible for the dystopiesque purge of eponymous names that is now programmed.
This plan was imposed directly by the leadership of the AOS, thereby bypassing the advice of the NACC who had voted to consider possibly offensive names individually.
This has already resulted in the resignation of two NACC members.
 
I would support finding alternative names where possible which link birds with their morphology, behaviour or geographies. And maybe having a limit of one patronym per individual as a start. And a rule like we have with UK postage stamps - you can't have a bird patronym unless you are dead already. We should consider that for Latin names too. I've established and recommended adopting some patronyms before, so this is something on which I have changed my mind.

TD
What you or I 'would support' is neither nere nor there and forms at least a small part of the objection to this process. The fact that nobody, outside of a room of old white blokes, choking on a large dose of self loathing, have been asked what they think, is questionable at best, authoritarian at worst.

Re scientific names, it's been mentioned and asked before (by me) when it was tentatively mentioned but, are there not rules which dictate that it is in fact, very hard to change a scientific name, mainly I'd imagine, for reasons of stability, it is the only constant in nomenclature as far as this non scientist understands it?
 
With regard to Scientific names, the basic rule is oldest name applied following the rules counts. Any change to bar a type of name is extremely unlikely to be accepted; there is the possibility for a name to “forgotten” in terms of priority if there are compelling reasons to do so; eg Cobra as a scientific name is not used as it was originally applied to a type of Viper, and thus there would be marked risks of the wrong treatment being given if pharmacists did not know whether they had Common or Scientific Cobra anti-venom! Possibly the Hitler Beetle might be a sufficiently deserving case for a name change if it could be proved that the change would reduce interest in the species potentially helping to push it towards extinction (but would a change in it being the ex-Hitler Beetle rather that the full Hitler Beetle actually achieve this?)
 
Now I'll have to read it, you've piqued my interest.

Related:

This would be the 2nd resignation I know of; the other has already been discussed.


Anyone know of any more?

 
With regard to Scientific names, the basic rule is oldest name applied following the rules counts. Any change to bar a type of name is extremely unlikely to be accepted; there is the possibility for a name to “forgotten” in terms of priority if there are compelling reasons to do so; eg Cobra as a scientific name is not used as it was originally applied to a type of Viper, and thus there would be marked risks of the wrong treatment being given if pharmacists did not know whether they had Common or Scientific Cobra anti-venom! Possibly the Hitler Beetle might be a sufficiently deserving case for a name change if it could be proved that the change would reduce interest in the species potentially helping to push it towards extinction (but would a change in it being the ex-Hitler Beetle rather that the full Hitler Beetle actually achieve this?)
So the removal / change of patronyms in scientific names is unlikely to be adopted? Who is the naming authority, could they be overruled as with the common name situation?

From what I read though, they do not intend to go after the scientific names - yet.
 
What you or I 'would support' is neither nere nor there and forms at least a small part of the objection to this process. The fact that nobody, outside of a room of old white blokes, choking on a large dose of self loathing, have been asked what they think, is questionable at best, authoritarian at worst.

I am not certain exactly who was involved in the decision but just pointing out that 5/7 of the full time staff of the AOS are women and the "governing council" or whatever it's called, that I saw a reference to being the ones who decided to at least implement this, is also composed of a majority of women.
 
I am not certain exactly who was involved in the decision but just pointing out that 5/7 of the full time staff of the AOS are women and the "governing council" or whatever it's called, that I saw a reference to being the ones who decided to at least implement this, is also composed of a majority of women.
I'll strike out 'blokes' then which is surprising in itself but the 'self loathing' stands.
 
Scientific names are governed by a series of slightly different rules (for the different kingdoms). There are around 20 or so Commissioners in charge of updating the rules, or of making the (very few) exceptions requested. The Animal rules cover names dating back to 1758; I cannot imagine any situation where a rule to eliminate patronyms would be brought in retrospectively as the potential upheaval would completely overturn the stability element. I could imagine a completely different nomenclature system being put in place, but not this type of overhaul within the system.
 
On patronyms and NACC

I would like to generally support what NACC are doing in getting rid of patronyms; I would prefer a more careful reduction programme, but aiming high might achieve something more akin to that. There may be a woke-ism agenda around that sparked some of this, with McCown and a few other names. But I think the fundamental point is a different one - birds or species don't really "belong" to people or individuals. They have morphological features and inhabit geographies or have habits, behaviours or songs after which they should where possible be named.

Sometimes, when cryptic species are split, it becomes difficult to come up with short English names which match a particular feature. Those in favour of patronyms, like a lot of legacy AOS people, might say that "Venezuelan Flycatcher" is no good, because several flycatchers occur in Venezuela and the species in question also occurs over the border in western Brazil. However, that name informs the observer so much more about the bird then "Ornithologist's Flycatcher".

You then have situations like that with Pallas, whose 1700s explorations in Russia I much appreciate, but who does not need a Sandgrouse and a Gull and a Bunting and a Rosefinch (and maybe some other things I can't think of right now) all named after him.

On the other hand, we can't have a total ban on patronyms surely, since so many geographical areas that often define species ranges or where many species occur are themselves named after people - America, Bolivia, Colombia, many Saints (Kitts, Nevis, Helena), the Magdalena river, Wallacea.

Then we have the whole imperialism/global North thing - most patronym bird names in S America, Africa and Asia bear the names of western persons, many of whom were museum curators who received skins and described stuff, but never set foot in the relevant continents or countries; or sponsors honored by those who did, disconnecting the names of birds from the people who observe them locally. This is not so relevant to North America, so it's interesting that NACC is taking a lead over this and SACC generally have done the opposite and been pro-patronym, including very pro-global-North-patronyms.

There is then the astonishing self interest of those objecting to this initiative - ornithologists objecting to the practice of honoring ornithologists in bird names. Several members of AOS-SACC have voted in favour of Latin or English language patronyms honoring themselves, in the past! I applaud those on NACC who are supporting this initiative, since they are taking steps against their own self-interest (and the self-interest of their profession in general) in pursuit of a valid policy goal.

I would support finding alternative names where possible which link birds with their morphology, behaviour or geographies. And maybe having a limit of one patronym per individual as a start. And a rule like we have with UK postage stamps - you can't have a bird patronym unless you are dead already. We should consider that for Latin names too. I've established and recommended adopting some patronyms before, so this is something on which I have changed my mind.

TD
Very well put, agree fully!
 
This coming alongside the WGAC reconciliation process I suspect might result in a death blow to the AOS as an overall authority for checklist purposes. Especially since we are now up to two committee member retirements (that I know of).

No matter where you fall, it does feel like the way this decision was made was poorly thought out. At the least it feels like there should have been some sort of vote of AOS members on whether to do a "slow approach" or the "rip-off the band-aid" approach that was actually implemented.

At the very least, I think the odds of getting any new non-common name changes to the checklist in 2024 are declining.
 

... I feel perhaps an AOSS (American Ornithological Society of the South) is in order, inviting all AOS disillusioned members to join forces, and continue with board members who resigned over such a radical breach of AOS tradition. AOSS would be embraced by many from Hudson Bay to Chihuahua.

Sound like an ornithological confederacy.
 
... I feel perhaps an AOSS (American Ornithological Society of the South) is in order, inviting all AOS disillusioned members to join forces, and continue with board members who resigned over such a radical breach of AOS tradition. AOSS would be embraced by many from Hudson Bay to Chihuahua.

Sound like an ornithological confederacy.
Forward the Red-neck Phalaropes! Incidentally, there's another really excellent area for bird name changes: all the birds weighed down with part of their scientific name because some person of limited horizons couldn't think of a good English word or portmanteau as the general part of their name: Yellow-bellied Hyliota is one from my own list that springs to mind.

John
 
But I think the fundamental point is a different one - birds or species don't really "belong" to people or individuals.
And? Common names are for us, humans, to easily communicate about the birds, there could be no other point.
They have morphological features and inhabit geographies or have habits, behaviours or songs after which they should where possible be named.

Sometimes, when cryptic species are split, it becomes difficult to come up with short English names which match a particular feature. Those in favour of patronyms, like a lot of legacy AOS people, might say that "Venezuelan Flycatcher" is no good, because several flycatchers occur in Venezuela and the species in question also occurs over the border in western Brazil. However, that name informs the observer so much more about the bird then "Ornithologist's Flycatcher".
This argument makes little sense. Number one, so many of the current common names we have misinform about the bird (Connecticut Warbler) or at least present nothing remotely useful (Orange-crowned Warbler, Yellow-bellied Flycatcher). So no one really should trust a bird's name to relay any useful information about the bird. And furthermore, why should it? A name is no format to communicate information about a bird. That's why field guides exist. As stated above, common names are to facilitate easy discussion about birds. If you're in the field and someone calls out "Venezuelan Flycatcher", that name has the exact same usefulness as Ornithologist's Flycatcher. What will reduce the usefulness of a common name, is changing it so that no one has any clue what's going on.
 
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Realistically, it is misleading names which form (something) of a barrier to novices. If I am just getting interested in the different forms I see, why shouldn’t I expect that every sparrow in a tree is a Tree Sparrow, that a Black-headed Gull should have a black head and the Plovers I see in the Thames Estuary are Kentish Plover? On the other hand, Bewick’s Swan is obviously a label, so I need to find out about the bird to know what to look out for.
 
A lot of folk's initial gut reaction is disagreement, because it is such a major change and because it paints all patronyms as equally problematic. I think in the next few weeks you will see at least some folks mellow out over it, like Kaufman did and like I did.
I am sure you are right, and that we will all mellow regarding the proposed name changes with time. In fact to be honest we already have to accept name changes (which I think are generally unnecessary), which already creep in to most revision of taxonomic lists.

I just think that Academia should take a breath and consider the ramifications of all changes (good and bad).

In my view the benefits of change are generally outweighed by the benefits of maintaining the status quo. As a tiny example, yesterday my wife was trying to submit her sightings from Yunnan into EBird, but was confused why Streak-throated Fulvetta (as named in her 2020 field guide) was not in EBird - I had to refer to the internet to understand that Streak-throated is now Manipur Fulvetta (a name change implemented this year by Clements and EBird). This is a tiny example, where a name change causes confusion (and in this case IOC and BirdLife were already using Manipur, and the change was not to do with a patronym, so perhaps not the greatest example). But if we magnify every name change by the number of individuals 'inconvenienced' or potentially 'confused', then the impact is huge - every time a learned society imposes a change we are impacting authors of forthcoming books, compilers of regional reports, publishers of local news-letters, administrators of databases, administrators of online media collections, and all the birdwatchers who use any of these. We are also making existing (hard copy) reference libraries harder to use - and what birder doesn't eventually fill there shelves with field guides and other birdwatching books? Am I to scribble the new names into all the books in my library?

In the worst case. I remember reading that for some early observations (by Westerners) in China, we no longer know for certainty the species they are referring to, as the name they used has fallen into disuse, and the historic use of the name cannot be traced through history to a current taxa. If only we hadn't changed things, it would be simple!

Then we have the benefit - if AOS make a decision, will every copy of Peterson's Field Guide change overnight, or will they be pulled off the shelves and replaced by reprints with the names corrected? My earliest memories of bird watching were pouring over the 'AA Book of British Birds' - OK the Internet didn't exist, but I doubt I would have been so excited about dry papers on taxonomic and name changes. I suspect that most newcomers will buy a copy of Peterson's Field Guide, rather than delve into the AOC pronouncements on name changes.

I must confess that I now look forward to yearly taxonomic updates, but for many (including my wife), the whole 'can't stop meddling' vibe is rather a turn-off. By changing things (including taxonomy and nomenclature) we come across as a bit of a bunch of nerdy, obsessive-compulsive pedants! Hardly great for encouraging people into the fold. When a young birder says he has just seen a Wilson's Warbler, are we going to turn round and say 'don't you mean a Black-capped Yellow Warbler (or whatever we decide)' - that will inspire the young boy or girl (....I don't think).

And as I say, aren't there bigger fish to fry? For starters the USA doesn't have a greatest record for conservation - how many species went extinct in USA territory in the 20th and 21st century? [My rough count is over twenty]. Perhaps the AOS could be a greater champion of conservation, and perhaps even be an advocate for the importance of minimizing climate change. Surely this would be a better use of valuable time.

Stepping into incredibly dangerous ground, but If the BTO or RSPB etc followed suit and proposed name changes, I would suggest that perhaps their first priority should be to stop sitting on the fence regarding dogs and cats. The dog issue seems a very British problem, as in many other countries I have visited, the owners seem happy to keep dogs on leads to protect nature. My local heathland birds are tormented by the huge number of dogs allowed to run off lead, so this is a particular bug-bear for me (but to be honest research has shown the presence of a dog on a lead causes higher levels of alertness and stress in birds). As I say, I think all societies and organisations, could think of more worthy and important things to do than change bird names.

I suspect that the problem is that societies feel that it is important to be 'seen to be doing the right thing', but in this case I would also argue its is flim-flam and rather insincere.
 
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