Are these people Birders ? (5 Viewers)

[Stevie babe]

Re last message,

Meant to relate to / excuse the apparent extra sensitivity in Uk about these 2 species.

Steve

 

[streatham]

Hi Steve -

I understand that both birds numbers are down in the UK, however ask most US birders and i'm sure they'd tell you that if we could give you all 800 million+ Starlings and however many million of House Sparrows back believe me we would . To keep in with the Doctor Who thread if I had a Tardis I'd go back and make sure neither species was introduced here.

All I have ever been trying to do in thiss thread is to not have BF members decide that the whole PM organisation is made up of nut-jobs - at least until they have looked at and thought about the issues and perhaps diplomatically tried to find out if the whole organisation has any scientific reasons that leads them to advocating the removal of non-native birds from PM colonies (if there really is any). I know nothing about this organisation - I will do some research through my local Bird Clubs etc - however I would like to believe that most of them feel that they are doing something positive for bird conservation whether some of their actions are misguided or not.

Luke

 

[Katy Penland]

All I have ever been trying to do in thiss thread is to not have BF members decide that the whole PM organisation is made up of nut-jobs - at least until they have looked at and thought about the issues and perhaps diplomatically tried to find out if the whole organisation has any scientific reasons that leads them to advocating the removal of non-native birds from PM colonies (if there really is any). I know nothing about this organisation - I will do some research through my local Bird Clubs etc - however I would like to believe that most of them feel that they are doing something positive for bird conservation whether some of their actions are misguided or not.

Luke

While I think you've made some very valid points here, Luke, it would sure be nice if all of these PUMA and bluebird defenders would provide direct links to the scientific literature themselves. In spending a couple hours last night (all the time I could) on Cornell's site trying to find actual published papers, most links refer either to other forums' posts or other websites with information too generic to answer the questions at hand. I was particularly interested in reading papers of studies not undertaken by special interest groups (e.g., PCMA) but by institutions such as Cornell, AOU, etc.

If Mark (Draco) is reading this thread, perhaps he could provide us with this information...?

 

[Jos Stratford]

All I have ever been trying to do in thiss thread is to not have BF members decide that the whole PM organisation is made up of nut-jobs - at least until they have looked at and thought about the issues and perhaps diplomatically tried to find out if the whole organisation has any scientific reasons that leads them to advocating the removal of non-native birds from PM colonies (if there really is any).

The issue, I believe, that most people on this Bird Forum have problems with is not the (possible) need to control a non-native species, but the simple pleasure and delight expressed in the methods they advocate to do this. Incidently, as Katy points out, their sights are not only on non-native species. I would agree with all the sentiments expressed by all the above posters and would condemn the entire PM organisation - if they are not moderating such posts, they have no business referring to themselves as either bird-lovers or conservationists in any form whatsoever. Can you imagine someone gloating on this forum how they enjoy to lie in a deckchair and engage in a spot of torture?

 

[Jos Stratford]

Shoot away, good people of Michigan, with my blessing and with the blessing of all genuine conservationists and bird lovers.

My above post is for you too Tannin,

Could you please find me one genuine conservationist or bird lover who likes to pull off the legs of birds or electricute them. No, these people are far from any reasoned definition of the terms conservationist/bird lover

 

[pduxon]

Can you imagine someone gloating on this forum how they enjoy to lie in a deckchair and engage in a spot of torture?

I think we can safely say the mods would have zapped the post instantly and admin would have kicked their arses off the forum so fast their feet wouldn't touch the ground.

 

[DKR]

Solidarity with Sparrows and Starlings

Wot. The Starlings?...:h?:

Mick

No, 'people' who shoot birds for fun. They seem to think getting trigger happy with Sparrows landing on their bird table is going to help native species but it seems they are gloating too much. A true conservationist who cares about birds would never write about birds like that.

 

[pduxon]

Perhaps someone should point this out to Birdlife International to take up with "Edinboro University of Pennsylvania" ? Anyone have any contacts? Sure Ian Peters has for one

 

[streatham]

The issue, I believe, that most people on this Bird Forum have problems with is not the (possible) need to control a non-native species, but the simple pleasure and delight expressed in the methods they advocate to do this. Incidently, as Katy points out, their sights are not only on non-native species. I would agree with all the sentiments expressed by all the above posters and would condemn the entire PM organisation - if they are not moderating such posts, they have no business referring to themselves as either bird-lovers or conservationists in any form whatsoever. Can you imagine someone gloating on this forum how they enjoy to lie in a deckchair and engage in a spot of torture?

Hi Jos,

And the issue I was raising is that there is a real issue buried under the offensive rubbish they are spouting (perhaps I should have just started another thread so as to disassociate myself from these people on the PM organization forum). Management of non-native bird species and cowbirds is of course a devisive issue here in the the US. It was really not my aim to stick up for people who like torturing birds (suprisingly enough) just to raise some issues UK birders may not be aware of. My personal position is that generally people need to concentrate on habitat conservation (as I do myself) - the House Sparrow and Cowbird thing is just a smokescreen that is used to create a seemingly more dealable with problem facing songbird declines in North America (similar to the Sparrowhawk/Corvid arguements in the UK).


On the 'scientific' front out of interest this is from Audubon on Cowbird control (a native species deemed a 'problem' bird): http://www.audubon.org/bird/research/#management

However you might see a slightly different tone with regard to non-native species but still little scientific evidence or research to back up many assertions just hearsay and localised examples. American Bird Conservancys, Audubons and my local Ornithological Associations responses to the Mute Swan question: http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/108cong/fish/2003dec16/winegrad.htm
http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/108cong/fish/2003dec16/pardoe.htm
http://www.ctbirding.org/ct_conservation.htm

Luke

 

[alcedo.atthis]

As previously stated by another poster, the web site is down. I wonder if this relates to the comments I made by e-mail to the sites administrators at 10:02 hrs, today's date, in view of the repeated content mentioning cruelty in several means shapes and forms. I have informed the University concerned, along with most of the authoritative conservation bodies in the States.
The forum may take a little more care with moderation and acceptable content in the future.
Unfortunatley for them, I have cut, copied and saved most of their posts, for future reference if needs be.

Regards

Malky. (Censorship is one of the first signs of fear of being contradicted. I hate censorship.)

 

[MikeDale]

I know Mike Dale posted that he had notified the PM org yesterday about the forums in question so maybe someone is looking into it?

Still no reply at from them I'm afraid. I stated that I was considering joining their forum as I have an interest in Purple Martins, (this is true; in conjunction with the farmer opposite we have put been trying to attract Purple Martins for the last 3 years) but that I was reconsidering in view of the posting regarding torturing House Sparrow.

If and when I get a reply I will advise you all immediately. As a Pennsylvania resident I will be emailing the Principal of the Edinboro University and make sure he is made aware of the situation.

Mike

 

[alcedo.atthis]

Interestingly, the Uni's site is still accessible. So I did a bit of reading. In 1991, a guy called Charles McEwen put a camera in a PM's nest box. The events were recorded.

http://www.purplemartin.org/LOY/LOY1992Video.html



A few interesting comments within the video diary.



"July 8, 1991 Male came in and started pecking the heads of the young. Female came in and bit him. They spin and spin in circles, fighting within the nest.

July 9, 1991 Later, the male came back in the compartment. He doesn't sit on the young, he just pecks the little runt, then sits next to them. Charlie witnesses the attacks and goes out and shakes the house. The male martin stops pecking the heads of the young, but he doesn't leave the nest compartment. He did no obvious harm to them. (Yes, I note that also)

July 15, 1991 Later, a sub adult male is in the compartment, looking at the young. He has been in a few other times, also. Charlie feels he is just curious. He has not been aggressive toward the young.

July 19, 1991 7:18 AM: An ASY male is now in the nest harassing the young. He nudges them out of the bowl."



Having read the above, along with the rest of the video diary, the comments suggest that infanticide is common within the realms of the Purple Martin, and researchers understand that this is not an unusual behaviour pattern.



More info :-

http://www.purplemartin.org/main/mgt.html



Twelve Reasons Why People Lose Their Purple Martins



http://www.purplemartin.org/main/toptwelve.html



Some interesting content there also.



Regards



Malky

 

[pduxon]

seems to be up at the moment regretably.

 

[Dimitris]

(fortunately the only ones I get are collared doves, very occasionally!!),

Collared Doves are not introduced they arrived on theyr own...

 

[Dimitris]

What on earth are you people talking about?

House Sparrows and European Starlings are vermin outside of their native environment, and do untold harm to the wildlife of the places that they have been introduced to (notably North America and Australia).

Yes I totaly agree that these species are vermin outside your range. (I hate them myself when I visit your country.).But the pleasure it is disgusting.We should(Yes do remove introduced species) try and heal the wounds me make but humanly.For exammple if memory serves me right.Your country catches Starlings and Common Mynahs in special traps(that catch only these species) then they kill the birds with gass.That's a quick death,no stress involved nothing gruesome,no torturing and those that do it don't take pleasure from doing it....(I think...).

If you kill and take pleasure from it you are sick(no ofense intended).One should always respect the animal he hunts no matter what it is.

Dimitris.

 

[streatham]

seems to be up at the moment regretably.

But if I'm not mistaken this forum policy stuff is new right?

"Posters must exercise good judgment when posting or responding to posts about controversial or sensitive issues. If you feel strongly about a martin-related topic, feel free to make a posting about that subject, but do so in a reasonable, constructive, and non-hostile manner. If you can't exercise some restraint, then this isn't the place for you!

Examples of inappropriate posts include (but are not limited to): posts that advocate or suggest illegal activity, posts that contain offensive language, posts that contain personal attacks or "digs" on other individuals or groups, posts of a hostile or vindictive nature, posts that glorify or vilify the necessary destruction of harmful and unprotected nest-site competitors (starlings and House Sparrows), posts that advocate cruelty towards (or protection of) these two species, posts that condone the illegal destruction of native wildlife, & posts that are unrelated to the Purple Martin hobby."

 

[Mary Evelyn]

Another thread, this time we are moving from shooting to Electrocuting,
it is still the pleasure they get from this that I find bizarre.

http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewtopic.php3?t=5457

Quote From the last line of post 4# " i have really enjoyed sitting in the window watching them land on it and zapping their lil butts lol "

Snap, Steve I totaly agree.

 

[MikeDale]

This is the reply from the Purple Martin Group:-

Mike Dale,

Posters on the Purple Martin Forum occasionally get carried away and
glorify the euthanasia of House Sparrows and European Starlings. I am
not sure if you referred to the torture thread or the electrocution
thread. Both were removed from the forum for violating forum policy.

As for you question, controlling Starlings is less of an issue for
colony sites using Starling Resistant Entrance Holes (SREH) since the
starlings can't easily enter the cavities. However, these holes still
allow for English House Sparrows to enter since they are much smaller
than Purple Martins. House Sparrows are known to harm adults and
nestlings and puncture or remove eggs. The PMCA advocates the humane
elimination of House Sparrows and European Starlings. The PMCA does
not
advocate the inhumane treatment of any creature! We take the stance
that these birds are only doing what they evolved, they are just doing
it on a continent they did not evolve on.

Personally, as a vegetarian and bird enthusiast, I have a difficult
time
with this euthanasia. I have come to understand the need for it.
These
non-native birds not only harm Purple Martins, they harm any cavity
nester that shares habitat requirements with these birds. For example,
Woodpeckers are often repelled from the natural cavities they excavate
by starlings.

For your reference, I am sending you a link to a recent article we
published in the Purple Martin Update, our membership magazine.
http://www.purplemartin.org/update/13(4)Humane.pdf

Thank you for your inquiry,

Patrick Kramer
Purple Martin Conservation Association



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 10:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Contact Webmaster Submission


NAME: Mike Dale

FORUM USERNAME:
URL IN QUESTION:
http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewtopic.php3?t=5437&sid=36ffba46c40e
63f301cd63e8c3da39e2
REFERER: http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/faq.php3

COMMENTS: I was considering joining but after reading this I dont know
that I want to. Is this sort the sort of thing you have to do to
conserve Purple Martins?

SUBMITTED: 08-Apr-2005 23:09

 

[Hanno]

And what about Australia's very own MP, David Tollner, who has these suggestions on controlling Cane Toads: Australia MP targets toxic toads

 

[Gill Osborne]

Animal welfare groups have said Mr Tollner's idea is inhumane. They recommend putting cane toads into a freezer until they die.


Errr THAT'S not much better than whacking them with a cricket bat!!! :C
I used to work in a pet shop and some of the guys on the Fish Department used to put sickly fish into the freezer...yet I once read that this causes pain to the fish as icicles form in the blood.

Surely, in this day and age, we can find ways to cull humanely with no pain to the animal!!! I know it's not nice but if it HAS to be done then at least make it pain-free and quick. :C You wouldn't do it to a human so WHY are animals considered less important?

Gill