Birding - a hobby for all people? (4 Viewers)

[Chosun Juan]

.... We are constantly being told that the lack of involvement of "ethnic groups, females, young people" in various activities is "a problem that needs addressed". Why? There always seems to be an assumption that there is a bias involved e.g. "Western racialism". Is that really all there is to it? The birdwatching clubs that I have been involved with bend over backwards to accommodate and attract young members. In fact they try all sorts of things to get new members - ....

I tend to agree with Egret - I really don't like this quota stuff - if you want to go look at birds or stamps (or planes as I often did) then who cares what you are. If ethnic minorities don't want to be involved in things then that's their decision. We shouldn't be forcing people to do activities because that activity's followers should reflect the population.

There must be the reverse too. How many white people play Kabaddi for example or the sitar etc? It's one of those issues that is not an issue but is picked up by the 'multiculturists' who cannot understand that perhaps some people that, according to the quota, should be birdwatching, are not.

I'm not sure I would agree it is bourgeois hobby though, plent of non-middle class people at both ends of the spectrum do it (birdwatching that is)

If they are not birding, then just what exactly are the "ethnic groups, females, young people" doing?

Is it way cooler than what I'm doing?

Why don't I know about it? Why have I been left out?

Why haven't these groups reached out to me to lavish their 'pro-active affirmative equality policies' and "inclusive activities" all over my personage?

Am I being discriminated against?

What about young black females - do they have it 3 times as bad?

What about red ones? yellow ones?

Why are there no young one-legged transgender lesbian indigenous birders?
What if they just like observing natural stuff like whales instead?

Will all of this be solved when the world has interbred to a sufficient degree that we are all a homogenous caramel colour? (homo caramelus)

What religion will they be? What if I don't like it?

Where does all of this leave Red-heads?

Is a lack of appreciation and care for nature any worse when it is from a fat banker; a rampantly breeding third world slash and burner; or drug addled white trash? Will environmental degradation be any better or worse? ......



Chosun :gh:

 

[fugl]

If they are not birding, then just what exactly are the "ethnic groups, females, young people" doing?

Is it way cooler than what I'm doing?

Why don't I know about it? Why have I been left out?

Why haven't these groups reached out to me to lavish their 'pro-active affirmative equality policies' and "inclusive activities" all over my personage?

Am I being discriminated against?

What about young black females - do they have it 3 times as bad?

What about red ones? yellow ones?

Why are there no young one-legged transgender lesbian indigenous birders?
What if they just like observing natural stuff like whales instead?

Will all of this be solved when the world has interbred to a sufficient degree that we are all a homogenous caramel colour? (homo caramelus)

What religion will they be? What if I don't like it?

Where does all of this leave Red-heads?

Is a lack of appreciation and care for nature any worse when it is from a fat banker; a rampantly breeding third world slash and burner; or drug addled white trash? Will environmental degradation be any better or worse? ......
:

Indeed, indeed, indeed, indeed. . . .. I do admire your style, Chosun,

 

[Jim M.]

Several of the recent posts in this thread are attacking straw men and positions that no one in this thread has advocated. No one has advocated (1) an abstract need to have birders reflect the population at large, (2) "forcing" people to bird, or (3) affirmative-action rules or quotas for birding groups. Those ideas are obviously ridiculous.

The only country I am aware of where there has been some attempt to make birding more inclusive with respect to certain racial or ethnic groups is the United States. And here the motivations for that attempt have nothing to do with abstract principles of "multiculturalism", but are much more concrete and practical. I think there are two primary motivating factors:

1. As I already noted above, it is a recognition of political realities. In this country, for better or worse, political power is often wielded along racial and ethnic divides. If politically powerful groups see no value to preserving natural areas or protecting birds, natural areas and birds are at even greater risk. And this is not an abstract concern, it is a problem faced all the time by advocates of environmental protection. So outreach to certain groups to give them opportunities to appreciate birds and nature in the way birders do is not just giving them an opportunity to appreciate nature in the way birders do, but also help wildlife itself.
​

2. Members of racial or ethnic groups who are birders themselves are disappointed that there's not more appreciation of nature and birding within their groups. The book I referenced above, for example, was written by an African-American birder (not a white suburban liberal). I imagine their motivations for writing such books are multifaceted, and include, in addition to the political motivations I mentioned above, a desire for companionship when pursuing their hobby and an understanding that there are complex cultural reasons that are acting as barriers to greater appreciation of nature and birds within their communities.
​

This will probably be my last post in this thread as it appears to be descending into Ruffled Feathers territory.

Best,
Jim

 

[Chosun Juan]

...... The only country I am aware of where there has been some attempt to make birding more inclusive with respect to certain groups is the United States. And here the motivations for that attempt have nothing to do with abstract principles of "multiculturalism", but are much more concrete and practical. I think there are two primary motivating factors:

1. As I already noted above, it is a recognition of political realities. In this country, for better or worse, political power is often wielded along racial and ethnic divides. If politically powerful groups see no value to preserving natural areas or protecting birds, natural areas and birds are at even greater risk. And this is not an abstract concern, it is a problem faced all the time by advocates of environmental protection. So outreach to certain groups to give them opportunities to appreciate birds and nature in the way birders do is not just giving them an opportunity to appreciate nature in the way birders do, but also help wildlife itself.
​

2. Members of racial or ethnic groups who are birders themselves are disappointed that there's not more appreciation of nature and birding within their groups. The book I referenced above, for example, was written by an African-American birder (not a white suburban liberal). I imagine their motivations for writing such books are multifaceted, and include, in addition to the political motivations I mentioned above, a desire for companionship when pursuing their hobby and an understanding that there are complex cultural reasons that are acting as barriers to greater appreciation of nature and birds within their communities .....​

Best,
Jim

Jim, I agree with most everything you've said here. In fact it's pretty much what I said - just in a different fashion

btw, not at all being antagonistic here, but when you say "a desire for companionship when pursuing their hobby" - do you mean 'with their own kind', or will any ol' human do?


Chosun :gh:

 

[Jim M.]

Jim, I agree with most everything you've said here. In fact it's pretty much what I said - just in a different fashion

btw, not at all being antagonistic here, but when you say "a desire for companionship when pursuing their hobby" - do you mean 'with their own kind', or will any ol' human do?


Chosun :gh:

In a race neutral world "any ol' human" should do. But the fact of the matter in this non-ideal world is that people are going to be uncomfortable if they are the only member of their race or group in a social context. They may also be more likely to bond with others that share a cultural background.

Best,
Jim

 

[Chosun Juan]

In a race neutral world "any ol' human" should do. But the fact of the matter in this non-ideal world is that people are going to be uncomfortable if they are the only member of their race or group in a social context. They may also be more likely to bond with others that share a cultural background.

Best,
Jim

Jim,

I think that's the crux of the problem (and many others) --- too many "special" sub-sets of people ...... and not enough humans. Too many times, the prejudice comes from the "special" sub-sets of people. I don't understand the discomfort - surely the shared interest would trump that. After all, if none of us ever expanded ourselves with new horizons where would we all still be - stuck in our own suffocating little tribes still? In my world people are only divided into one of two groups - the Good, and the Bad ...... I really couldn't give a flyin' fox what colour they are.

The only thing that I find personally uncomfortable is the language barrier - but that's due to a complete and utter inability to process other languages on my part. Despite that I've muddled through many a time of pidjin gibberish, global gesticulations, and mime ....... and if all else fails - smile !



Chosun :gh:

 

[Andy Hurley]

apart from the North American Birders that are on this forum, and I can't know their ethic origin, only guess, I met one black guy in Shark Valley in the Everglades who came from the Bronx in NYC. Ok, he worked on the train there but his knowledge and humour were unforgettable. Similarly the local guides in Namibia are often black rather than white Namibians and they have a vast knowledge of their local avifauna. Maybe its a job related thing. How many "birders" on birdforum have something to do with biology/conservation/ecotourism as a job? I'm pretty sure many of the well respected experts that answer our daily enqiuries do have. The majority of german birders I have met certainly have a career interest in birds.

 

[Farnboro John]

I'm absolutely fascinated by the maturity and intelligence being displayed on this thread. I hope I can live up to at least some of it....

The whole point about recreational activities is that individuals choose them. I don't want to watch football. I don't want to go clubbing. I absolutely don't want to go to Notting Hill carnival. If other people don't want to go birding its their loss, but I'll make the best of it.

If I'm in a hide I don't care whether David Lindo or David Tipling comes in, as long as they're reasonably quiet about it and bird sensibly.

Not only is birding a sublimation of the hunting instinct, but its as tribal as football. Just have a look at threads where ringers, twitchers and patchers clash heads on here! People like to feel they are part of a tribe, and if they can make it hierarchical in their mind, it works even better for them.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, up to a point. That point is why we have moderators.

Good birding everybody.

John

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Hi all,

Talking about differences in behaviour between people of different origin is typically sensitive, because a word wrongly placed can make the conversation fall down to racism.

Still it is a interesting subject.

As a international field-ornithology teacher, I do work with different type of people. I teach European, African and South America. And I do see difference in behaviour between all. I've created the Moroccan Rare Bird Committee, and I worked with both Moroccan and foreigners.

To reply the OP question.

Black African like birding. When they know the activity exist, and get chance to carry binoculars and/or books, they love it in majority. With means and education, we would have any birders here in Uganda or East Africa in general. I see that it is more difficult in French-speaking African countries... were they like more hunting. Guess why...

In tropical America, we find people really interested in birds, though my feeling is that the proportion would be much lower than in English speaking Africa in similar situation of education and means.

I'm always badly surprised that in North Africa, people are not interested in birding, even when we bring material needed. Compare to Black Africa the difference is huge.

Case of expatriates is different. In Europe, I taught more than 1,200 students and I had not a single black. However, this is not related to the origin I guess, but the fact the are expatriates. As a comparison, largest expatriate population in Belgium where I did most of my teaching are Moroccan and I got only one in total. I got also only one Russian and one Brazilian and no Asian.

Therefore, I conclude that interest for birdwatching is cultural, being encourage in English-speaking culture and not in French (and other Latin) languages. It is not at all matching North African culture and very easy to develop in Black Africa where limited means and access to material is clearly the problem. It is not enjoyed by most expatriates in Western countries.

By the way, I teach in Uganda and still struggle to get East African field guides at a reasonable price. If anyone wish to help....

 

[mdmiles]

If this point was made somewhere, I apologize. I admittedly skimmed a bit.

I think part of this has to do with education as well. I don't mean schooling, but just the knowledge of things outside of what you see and know inside your own world. For instance, I had heard of birding when I was young, but I had no idea what it was. I discovered the hobby when I watched "The Big Year". There's other hobbies that I have that seem to attract a certain demographic, and it's always unintentional. People are interested things based on what their environment gives them.

 

[Zheljko]

Therefore, I conclude that interest for birdwatching is cultural, being encourage in English-speaking culture and not in French (and other Latin) languages. It is not at all matching North African culture and very easy to develop in Black Africa where limited means and access to material is clearly the problem. It is not enjoyed by most expatriates in Western countries.

After further thinking, I think that the "cultural" aspect is very multifaceted; it is not just "it is silly to go out and watch some birds", it is also "I have too much on my plate so I have no time to go out regularly and develop any expertise". Some cultures/environments overschedule you with worktasks and family tasks. My friend has a 9 year old child; if you work 9-5 you have no daylight hours for birdwatching on weekdays; child must be in school a little before 8; during most of schoolyear it dawns at 6.30-7.00 when you oversee your child brushing their teeth, preparing for school, then you take them there; squeezing birdwatching between 8 and 9 is difficult as you have to commute to your work and there are traffic jams; after work it is either too dark or you take your child to soccer/karate practice; you also need a good sleep and even if it dawns a little earlier and you get up a little earlier, you cannot leave your child asleep in bed because they would be late in school.

 

[Andy Hurley]

After further thinking, I think that the "cultural" aspect is very multifaceted; it is not just "it is silly to go out and watch some birds", it is also "I have too much on my plate so I have no time to go out regularly and develop any expertise". Some cultures/environments overschedule you with worktasks and family tasks. My friend has a 9 year old child; if you work 9-5 you have no daylight hours for birdwatching on weekdays; child must be in school a little before 8; during most of schoolyear it dawns at 6.30-7.00 when you oversee your child brushing their teeth, preparing for school, then you take them there; squeezing birdwatching between 8 and 9 is difficult as you have to commute to your work and there are traffic jams; after work it is either too dark or you take your child to soccer/karate practice; you also need a good sleep and even if it dawns a little earlier and you get up a little earlier, you cannot leave your child asleep in bed because they would be late in school.

When I was young, if I wanted to do karate or any other activity I had to get myself there by foot or bicycle. I don't understand the need modern parents have of being slaves to their children. They have to be driven to school, picked up aftewards, driven to ballet, etc. If the children are genuinely interested in persuing an activity, and not being forced into by a parent, then they will walk 1Km or cycle 3 Km to get there.

 

[chris butterworth]

I have to agree with Andy. Far too many people say "I've far too much on my plate", usually the ones who also demand "me time", as an excuse. Both my parents worked, ran the home and made sure they spent time with us -we all learned to read, write and do basic arithmetic before we went to school. They'd throw some sandwiches in a bag and we would go off for totally impromptu picnics, they encouraged our hobbies and our self reliance. As for being taken to school, I'd often have to walk the 4 miles because the car had broken down - and my father had borrowed my bike to get to work. The only difference between then and now is, they understood what 'family' meant and would never have been able to comprehend such rubbish as "me time". I think the post by mdmiles ( #30 ) sums up a major reason, in fact it may be a basal reason, for the rather reduced demographic of birding very well.

Chris

 

[pianoman]

Interesting the point made by Valery and others: Africans in Africa are more likely to be birders than those not resident in Africa. Part if my motivation for birding is in the emotional attachment to my patch and the wildlife it contains. Perhaps you have to feel totally enfranchised where you live in order to love your area with that passion. If you are made to feel like you don't "own" your local area then that passion is not so strong.

 

[eddy the eagle]

These last few posts remind me of my late teen years when after saturday morning at work I would cycle 12 miles,play football and cycle 12 back home and still go out to the local dance in the evening.Boy was I fit in those days......Eddy.