BirdLife [Malta] report reveals increased levels of illegal hunting (1 Viewer)

[Black Wheatear]

then here was a perfectly reasonable reply to your posts on the 'other' thread
It is actually one of the most unreasonable replies I read and terribly flawed.

Unreasonable and flawed only by your remarkable standards.

You direct us to a document produced by hunters to support their views and refute all others. This you inform us is the ‘whole’ and ‘actual’ truth of what is really happening in Malta.
Actually it is. It obviously revolves around the issues affecting hunters and I posted the link for the benefit of those that maybe do not know both sides of the story. Its based on documented facts that cannot be denied.

I am afraid it can be denied. If you take the trouble to read your document or more correctly the said document, then you will read on several occasions where it states ‘in our opinion’. So rather than a matter of fact it is more of an interpretation of law.

On the other hand you believe all anti-hunting articles, documents and postings here are either completely misguided or just lies to feed anti-hunting sentiments.
No, not all. Its not the anti-hunting articles, documents and postings that i'm talking about but mainly those lies and exaggerations regarding illegal hunting that are being used to tarnish Malta's reputation with the public at large to reach the final aim of making the island a hunt-free zone. An aim to which you signed up for in your petition. Nobody ever said illegal hunting doesn't happen over here.
'Dear Commissioner Dimas,
Many concerned professional and amateur ornithologists, and not least ordinary bird and nature lovers in the European Union and elsewhere, are increasingly in doubt as to whether the EU will retain its firm stance on the matter of phasing out all bird hunting and trapping on Malta.' FAT CHANCE! And as if the EU ever took the stance of wanting to phase out all bird hunting in Malta. The petition is badly worded so whoever is responsible please take note

Go figure. You do not have to be a genius to work out the letter is aimed at putting a stop to all ‘illegal’ hunting and trapping.

I really don’t think you can be critical here of others especially so, when you yourself are happy to so completely believe in one side of the argument and not the other! You can reason with people here, but do not expect folk here to be so gullible as to simply dismiss their concerns based on a document written by hunters for hunters.
Well now you have it on a document published by the anti-hunters (Bird Life) for the anti-hunters. I'm sure yv read what they reported. 55 protected birds shot down in the entire raptor migration season. Whilst still condemnable this is nowhere near the hundreds and even thousands that you were led to believe were being gunned down.

You really are selective in your arguments aren’t you? The report goes much further in its concerns and beliefs in terms of 'declared' or handed-in birds than you are suggesting.

I think I've made my case. Yours and all the anti-hunting lobby's has been torn apart by your very own BL report. I'm sure Stavros Dimas will take note of it. [/COLOR]

I believe you have shown a remarkable ineptitude in making any kind of sustainable and coherent argument, so far from making your case you seem to lurch from one selective extract of a whole to another. One really does hope that there are more intelligent and balanced views than yours, not too sure of Stavros Dimas, but hopefully he will see the harm being done by a minority, albeit powerful lobby, of islanders.

Fight illegal hunting all you like, i'm with you there. Don't lie about its extent to satisfy your ulterior motive of abolishing legal hunting because that's where you begin to step on my toes.[/COLOR]

Now we are really worried if our views are stepping on your toes aren’t we?

 

[bitterntwisted]

...Did you question the fact that BirdLife could only report 55 shot protected birds during the September migration when all over the media they were screaming massacre?
How does that compare to, again I give you the same example, the single bloke from Shropshire that killed 103 buzzards? Where is the mass destruction happening?

That bloke was not convicted of killing 103 buzzards. His coded diaries suggested he did, but he was convicted only of the offense witnessed by fellow gamekeepers. Official death toll in the case: 2 birds.

Official death toll through illegal hunting this year on Malta, recorded by Birdlife, including only recovered carcasses: 55 birds. Do you seriously expect us, or anyone, to believe that 55 is anything other than the tiny tip of a massive and bloody iceberg, just as the pitiful number of convictions in the UK is? Official body counts really only mask the true death toll.

I personally have no issue with legal, sustainable, hunting for food. If that is what you are seeking to protect then by downplaying the appalling seriousness of the problem in Malta you are doing yourself a massive disservice. You have to admit (perhaps first to yourself) that the scale of the problem in your country is worse than anywhere else in Europe. You have to petition your own government and law enforcement to stamp out the very sizeable rogue element. You have to participate in the monitoring of poaching and report illegal activity (as the Shropshire gamekeepers colleagues so admirably did) You have to monitor the populations of quarry species and ensure hunting does not adversely impact them. Then you'll get to keep your hobby and most, if not all, will leave you alone.

Do you really think it is just vindictiveness that brings the media outrage? What plausible explanation is there for the rest of Europe protesting so loudly the extent of illegal hunting in Malta other than that your island has thoroughly earned its reputation as a bird bloodbath?

Graham

 

[Jos Stratford]

You conveniently ignored ...

Ah Mr Gallina,

This very sentence is the one that seems to really underlie rather many statements you post. You wish to paint Malta as some victimised paradise and try to deflect the fact that illegal hunting is rife by trying to draw comparisons with the UK, a fanciful attempt given the the actual and real conservation successes in the UK, successes that far far outweigh the unfortunate persecution that does still occur (if you need an example, just think of the Red Kites you have referred to). It is a pity we can rarely speak of the conservation successes on your island.

However, given that you are seemingly convinced that this is not the situation how about we bury our differences for a while. First, we can take a holiday together in the UK - any spot at any season you chose. In return, we'll spent a couple of weeks on Malta together at a season and location of my choosing. If you see more illegal persecution in the UK than I see on Malta, I'll pay your costs for everything. I somehow think my money is safe.


Incidently, you also chose to ignore my comment that E.U. taxpayer money is being pumped into Malta. Do you not agree that in return it is reasonable that E.U. taxpayers expect the Maltese government/nation to respect E.U. norms and regulations. Or is a case of 'leave us alone' to disregard E.U. legislation, but 'don't leave us alone' in regard to E.U. cash?

 

[John B (not the sloop)]

Action this day

Right then - All my personal e-mails now carry the following signature panel

Please sign this petition against the indiscriminate and illegal slaughter of thousands of wild birds in Malta http://www.petitiononline.com/malta06/
And please avoid Malta as a holiday destination and ask your friends and relatives to do the same

Feel free to cut and paste it into your own.

 

[deborah4]

I personally have no issue with legal, sustainable, hunting for food. If that is what you are seeking to protect then by downplaying the appalling seriousness of the problem in Malta you are doing yourself a massive disservice. You have to admit (perhaps first to yourself) that the scale of the problem in your country is worse than anywhere else in Europe. You have to petition your own government and law enforcement to stamp out the very sizeable rogue element. You have to participate in the monitoring of poaching and report illegal activity (as the Shropshire gamekeepers colleagues so admirably did) You have to monitor the populations of quarry species and ensure hunting does not adversely impact them. Then you'll get to keep your hobby and most, if not all, will leave you alone.


Graham

A very sensible post Graham and although I personally have issues with any form of hunting (as does Martin obviously!), I agree the distinction should be made between the illegal persecution (not ''poaching'' Gallina - that conveys a picture of nicking a few salmon from a Loch on a dark Scottish night to me!) of EU designated protected species and the quarry still regarded as legal. The tradition of Legal hunting that the Maltese, as with many other EU Countries, regard as a cultural tradition and one that they wish to maintain should not be part of this debate on either side. It always presents problems when cultural traditions are being perceived to be under attack by forces outside it's national boundary and since most EU countries have hunting traditions, including the UK, we probably need to stay focused on the real issue and that is illegal hunting and not get bogged down with the rest of it .

However, Gallina, it seems to me you are attempting to make this rightful distinction (ie. what is hunted legally in Malta and what is hunted illegally) but solely for the purposes of downplaying the extent of illegal hunting - it's a typical lawyers ploy actually, bury your opposing side in masses of disclosure paperwork so they find it difficult to pull out the necessary documentary evidence to argue their case! Whether this is because of a fear that your own cultural tradition of legal hunting in Malta is being undermined (and I can see how you might think that if you come under attack for being a hunter per se) OR whether you yourself are protecting the interests of those who do hunt illegally, I'm not sure, so won't pass judgment either way.

What I do know Gallina, is that the heated debate being conducted here on BF, along with BLM, Proact etc between yourself/the rest of the Maltese hunting fraternity, does not revolve around a desired ban of all legal hunting in Malta (that would be grossly unfair since most EU countries conduct seasonal hunts of mammals and birds) but rather a desire to see an end to the unnecessary, discriminate, illegal slaughter (under your law and EU law) of the many species that do not fall into your legitimate hunting targets or those of the EU.

Gallina, if you only hunt legally as you say then you need to come down off the fence and stand firmly with Kestrel - your cultural tradition/hobby of legal hunting many people can live with, as do many of us who hate any form of hunting have to live with it here. But what none of us can live with is the bloody constant first hand reports/videos/photos coming out of Malta of the biannual illegal destruction of migrating birds and the constant denial from the hunting community that there's anything like a serious problem.

Stand with us Gallina if you really want to protect your hunting tradition and stand against those who really undermine it - ie. those ILLEGAL HUNTERS who make a travesty of your traditions and your Country's laws on wildlife crime. (If necessary use your gun to protect yourself from them - we could do with some strong arms on our side but in the very least do what Graham has suggested and get cracking on cracking down on those who persecute birdlife in Malta)

 

[bitterntwisted]

However, given that you are seemingly convinced that this is not the situation how about we bury our differences for a while. First, we can take a holiday together in the UK - any spot at any season you chose. In return, we'll spent a couple of weeks on Malta together at a season and location of my choosing. If you see more illegal persecution in the UK than I see on Malta, I'll pay your costs for everything. I somehow think my money is safe.

A very, very well thought out offer. This must, if you are right Gallina, seem extraordinarliy generous. Nonetheless, I am prepared to match this generosity with exactly the same. I'll even throw in £500 spending money.

Graham

 

[John Cantelo]

Gallina, I have to admire your sheer chutzpah in accusing me of refusing to understand your arguments when you have comprehensively failed to do so yourself. I’d accuse you of having your head in the sand like an Ostrich only I fear that this connection might be enough for some of Malta’s famously law abiding (sic) and well controlled hunters (sick, sorry, sic) to take a pot shot at you. (Sorry, a cheap shot which breaks my own rules, but I just couldn’t resist it!). After all this is what they’ve done to conservationists. And threatened them. And abused them. And wrecked their cars. And used caltrops to puncture the tyres of their cars. And damaged and sabotaged nature reserves. And laid siege to those nature reserves. And made the mere act of birding in Malta a perilous occupation. But, of course, I’m making all this up. So are the EU. And Birdlife Malta. And the RSPB and a host of other European NGOs. And those who write to the Times of Malta. And those inconvenient birdwatchers (native and visitor alike). And that colleague of mine who swore he’d never go back after witnessing the carnage that is the hunting season in Malta. Perhaps, coming as you do from a deeply religious country, you should spend some time contemplating Matthew 7:3.

I may have ignored, as you see it, the report of 55 shot protected birds, but how much do you have to ignore to trot out your tired excuses? Naturally, I deplore the proven killing of two Buzzards (see Graham's post) in Shropshire – who wouldn’t? If, however, you insist, perhaps not unreasonably, on referring to the higher number, then we critics may justifiably inflate the totals regarding Malta with similarly 'unproven' totals. Interestingly this criminal was shopped by outraged fellow gamekeepers – how many illegal hunters have the ‘legitimate’ hunters on Malta shopped so far? It shouldn’t be too hard as there are 12,000 of you. By your own admission a far smaller number of birders have reported 55 cases. Perhaps, your colleagues have failed to notice them; if so walking in Malta with so many gun-toting myopic hunters must be damn dangerous. It might also be a charitable explanation as to why so many protected birds are regularly targeted. Incidentally, although 10x the size of Malta, Shropshire has roughly the same population. Believe me had Shropshire generated a fraction of the incidents reported from Malta over the years, then the place would be knee deep in protestors and the media coverage would dwarf that witnessed over the actions of Maltese hunters.

As for your three points
a) As you generously observe I would agree with you that the wholesale slandering of the Maltese people, is not the sensible way forward. Abuse is never the way to advance an argument since the abuse itself quickly becomes the principle object of the debate. However, I note that you have entirely missed my point that this is the result of the deep anger felt throughout Europe at the long running illegitimate slaughter of birds on Malta. That Maltese hunters have a very limited understanding of the natural world is nowhere better illustrated than by their desire to continue the spring hunting of species which are endangered in Europe. Your stance here is rather like Xerxes’ infamous killing of a servant who brought news of disaster.
b) I do understand your point, but think it a worthless one. I’m afraid you signally fail to comprehend the uniqueness of Malta’s situation and the utterly disproportionate scale of the destruction of wildlife on your island. Clearly my previous commentary on the relative sizes of our two nations is entirely lost on you. Similarly, you fail to comprehend that, those of us who criticise Malta here are equally robust in our criticism of other parallel situations (c.f. the huge media coverage of the recent shooting of TWO Hen Harriers in the UK and campaigns regarding bird slaughter in Cyprus, Italy, etc). Apart from anything else wrong doing at home, doesn’t legitimise wrong doing elsewhere. Your argument would have more force if Malta was taking legal action and the UK was not; as we both know the situation is the reverse of this. But, of course, as I thought I’d made clear, the two situations aren’t remotely parallel.
c) On your final observation I must part company with you and I have largely covered this point in my opening comments. Although perhaps extreme examples, the underlying attitude towards wildlife by Maltese hunters is nowhere better illustrated than by the maniacal determination with which by members of the hunting fraternity pursue protected birds. The case of the roosting Black Storks has already been mentioned and who could forget the incident a few years back when the crowds who’d gone to Valetta harbour to witness the unexpected arrival of a flock of swans were rewarded instead by the ugly spectacle of motorised thugs racing out to sea to slaughter them. Such behaviour, in full public view remember, would be unthinkable in the UK (or, indeed, elsewhere in Europe). Such incidents happen annually on Malta do they not? Compare, for example, the recent re-colonisation of the UK by Common Crane which now form a small flock in East Anglia. I realise that you don’t like hypothetical questions, but I don’t think anyone else on this forum other than yourself would doubt that a similar flock of Cranes on Malta would be basted apart within days (see Black Stork and Flamingo). To me 626 abuses of the hunting laws in a single month seems excessive particularly when you consider the small size of your island’s population. I’m gratified that, in the specific case you mentioned, the authorities were so vigilant. As you should be well aware there have been recent cases of hunters concealing shotguns within nature reserves for the sole purpose of avoiding the law. In this context the police’s actions seem to me to be entirely reasonable.

Yes, I do insist that the poaching situation on Malta is unacceptable. By any reasonable analysis, as I tried to demonstrate, the situation cannot be compared to that in the UK. I understand that you prefer to see all the evidence to the contrary as some sort of wicked plot on the part of Birdlife International et al. But why on earth, given the multitude of threats to birds worldwide and the severely limited resources with which to combat them, would these organisations waste time on Malta if there’s no threat? To reiterate these are not my claims, but those of a substantial number of people and organisations. I am, I hope, neither gullible nor in league with anyone.

John

PS - I’ll save you (and others) the trouble of looking up that Biblical quote – it’s “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” Rather apt I think.

 

[Nightranger]

Yes Colonel, in the UK it is, thanks to loss of natural habitat in the main, but I don't know if you realised, we're talking about Malta here, a tiny island in the middle of the Meditteranean that is quite far away from the UK. The RSPB reports only the birds in the UK of course whilst the IUCN reports on international populations. Whilst the population might be rapidly declining in the UK, it is very healthy elsewhere, hence the rating of least concern

This is too easy.

1. Have you seen the latest Birdlife International report (covered on BBC News online)? It charts declines in common species all across Europe. IUCN designations tend to change over longer periods of time than are now useful for charting population change, particularly on a local or regional basis. This is not a criticism of the IUCN, merely that the standard was set up some time ago when less was known about short term population change. Rest assured we are heading for species such as turtle dove being uprated to the red data list in more countries than the UK and soon.

2. Have you heard of migration corridors? This is where birds will take the shortest sea crossing available, including islands. Eilat in Israel and Gibraltar are obvious routes but Malta offers a neat stepping stone too. This means around a third of the birds migrating to western Europe could be using Malta. I do not like using words such as 'could' because it infers a note of uncertainty but it is actually even more pessimistic than that. There is a perceptible bias towards certain species that HAVE to make a refueling stop so that it is no surprise that hunting of this level will have an impact either in the short or long term.

3. Habitat loss is pretty serious but it is not always easy to see what species will benefit and what will lose out ahead of time. However, this is a complete blind when compared to hunting and the obvious and deliberate bias towards selected species.

 

[A CHAPLIN]

Hi Folks,

I did not want to start a new thread, just to report the latest incidence of illegal shooting, this time at 6 Great White Egrets that were resting on a reserve on Malta, protected by BirdLife Malta staff and the ALE. A hunter was seen shooting 4 times and sadly one of the birds was killed. The police were called and arrested the hunter who admitted what he had done.

If anyone would like a copy of the email I have received please PM me.

Ann :-C

 

[Gallina]

Ahhhh sighhh. Where do I begin? Too much to reply to, too little time. Nothing of what you have all told me convinces me and I reiterate:

a) I condemn any form of illegal hunting/poaching (incidentally Deborah, and I thank you for your post, the most sensible so far, poaching is the term used for the illegal taking of game or fish whether its a salmon in Scotland, a buzzard in the UK, a bee-eater in Malta or an elephant in Kenya.

b) Poaching in Malta exists, only a fool would deny it. That the island is a blood bath and that hunters shoot at anything that flies, and that annually hundreds if not thousands of protected birds are gunned down is a myth, only a fool would believe it.

d) That Malta is on a main migrating route is another myth. It is roughly 300km away from the fringe of the main passage through the Straits of Messina.

c) That BLM and CABS are fuelling and exaggerating these myths in an attempt to create outrage all over Europe (and they have managed) to reach their final aim of abolishing hunting in Malta (and this is on the cards because already everybody is clamoring for it), is to my mind plausible and a matter of fact.

d) So please excuse me and my fellow hunting friends when we take umbrage at your statements. We won't be defending the illegal hunters, we distance ourselves from them and we detest them for all the problems they are causing. We also detest organisations like BL who are trying to achieve their aim by lying at our expense. I would like to see the day when the hunter's federation and BL and CABS can work together to eradicate the abuses but I believe that that day is still a long way away.

So, in conclusion, I think we have to agree to disagree. There's no point in discussing this further. You have your points of view, yv made them clear, I have mine, I've also made them clear.
Only time will tell what inner consciences don't already know.

Oh and Mr Cantelo, if I were as well read or witty as you I could have used that quote for you when we were discussing raptor persecution in the UK versus that in Malta, but alas.
Instead i'll ask you to look up this one: Exodus 20: 1-17, comm #9.

 

[John Cantelo]

Hi Folks,

I did not want to start a new thread, just to report the latest incidence of illegal shooting, this time at 6 Great White Egrets that were resting on a reserve on Malta, protected by BirdLife Malta staff and the ALE. A hunter was seen shooting 4 times and sadly one of the birds was killed. The police were called and arrested the hunter who admitted what he had done.

Ann :-C

Absolutely appalling, Ann. It takes no great leap of the imagination to guess what would have happened had not Birdlife staff and the ALE been present. This on a on a reserve, mark you, where the hunter presumably knew the chances of being spotted were high; such boldness again implies that the situation is out of control. It will be interesting to see how, if found guilty, this felon will be treated. I trust Gallina and his fellow legitimate hunters will call for a a severe and exemplary punishment - it's just what we'd demand in the UK. And, Gallina, if you're reading this doesn't this case answer the hypothetical question about Cranes that I posed earlier?

John

 

[A CHAPLIN]

Hi John,

Thank goodness BirdLife Malta and the ALE were there all night or all 6 birds could have been killed.

It is as if the hunters break their own country's laws deliberately at this time to show they can do what they want and nobody can stop them. They should be sent to jail and all their weapons removed and their gun licences taken as well, never to be issued again.

Ann

 

[Gallina]

It sure does Mr Cantelo, we didn't need this case to answer yr question. What a bloody idiot. I hope now that they've nabbed this moron he will get what he deserves. I'll keep you posted on the outcome if you like. Technically the maximum is 2 years imprisonment and/or €14000 fine, confiscation of weapon and revokation of hunting license together with expulsion from hunting federation, but I doubt it will happen given the recent sentence handed down to two poachers that got a suspended prison sentence and a petty €1000 fine. This is where the problem lies, if the judiciary set an example with this latest case I am dead certain that these ignorant acts will stop.

 

[Nightranger]

d) That Malta is on a main migrating route is another myth. It is roughly 300km away from the fringe of the main passage through the Straits of Messina.

The geographical position of Malta is irrelevant to the overall discussion here, as in anyone who has a map will realise. We do not have to talk straight lines here, Malta is pretty much midway between the north African coast and Sicily irrespective of whether it lies midway along the shortest route. The importance of islands to migrating birds cannot be overstated because they are often safer (except for Maltese guns) than mainland staging posts in terms of often having fewer predators. True enough, there is a potential cost in choosing a long overwater route that has to be weighed against taking a longer land route requiring more stops or more fuel [Additional note: meaning more chance to be exposed to terrestrial predators and resident raptors at a time when they are exhausted]. If you want to try this in a theoretical way then get a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator (2002 or better) and plan each of the routes (a default Cessna will do nicely) to see what I mean. Therefore, it does not matter that Malta is 300 km away from the Straits of Messina it IS still on one of the main Mediterranean migration routes. However, if you can provide me with a scientific paper refuting this idea then I will happily withdraw this comment.

 

[Nightranger]

This is where the problem lies, if the judiciary set an example with this latest case I am dead certain that these ignorant acts will stop.

We agree on this one although it worries me that there is a conspiracy of silence from other alleged law-abiding hunters. I am not sure how you can been unaware of the identities of at least some of these people. Sheer human nature says that some of the law-abiding hunters are almost certainly breaking the law some of the time. Just to pre-empt your possible reply, I have seen the poor identification skills argument before (even over raptor persecution in the UK) and it does not wash because:

a) ignorance is no excuse in law.
b) anyone who does not know what they are shooting at really should not have a gun in their hands in the first place.

 

[Martin Thomas]

It sure does Mr Cantelo, we didn't need this case to answer yr question. What a bloody idiot. I hope now that they've nabbed this moron he will get what he deserves. I'll keep you posted on the outcome if you like. Technically the maximum is 2 years imprisonment and/or €14000 fine, confiscation of weapon and revokation of hunting license together with expulsion from hunting federation, but I doubt it will happen given the recent sentence handed down to two poachers that got a suspended prison sentence and a petty €1000 fine. This is where the problem lies, if the judiciary set an example with this latest case I am dead certain that these ignorant acts will stop.

Strong words Gallina (not) - You really must have grimaced when you saw this "bloody idiot" got caught. Pissed in your pot here big time didn't he? How is your 'brother in arms' bearing up under the strain? Better than the egret I'm sure.

Where the 'real problem' lies is with all the 'morons', including you, who have a desire to murder wild birds, legitimately or otherwise.

If you really believe that making an example of this one murderous scumbag will end these 'ignorant acts' then why don't you write to the judiciary and publicly declare your faith in them and the justice system? I suspect you wouldn't dare put your head above the parapet for fear of having it blasted at like the ranger who was shot in the face by one of your legal gun owning fraternity.

The only thing that's 'dead certain' is that if you and your firearm loving friends didn't have such barbaric, blood thirsty pastimes then the rest of us would have more avifauna to appreciate and the world's biodiversity would be that bit less under pressure.

Thanks for offering to 'keep us posted' but I'm sure we'll manage without your accurate reporting skills of facts from the island.

 

[John Cantelo]

Actually, Gallina, in your last two posts I see some tiny shreds of agreement.

"a) I condemn any form of illegal hunting/poaching ....."
I know you've said it before and it's a great start. It'd be more convincing if you voiced your forthright condemnation of those individual instances highlighted here. It is, therefore, welcome that you have done so with regard to the most recent example. It'd also be far more convincing if you and your legal hunting friends started shopping others and, better still, if you gave up the odd day hunting to monitor areas like bird reserves which appear to be under constant threat from poachers.

"b) Poaching in Malta exists, only a fool would deny it. ….. "
Splendid! I'm glad that we are again in agreement here. Whether or not it's a myth to claim that illegal hunting is a serious problem on Malta seems to depend both on the credence you give to reports of illegal shooting incidents and the level of abuse that you find acceptable. For myself I find the testimony of various organisations and visiting birders over many years and of the Maltese themselves convincing. Similarly, the regularity with which large conspicuous birds like Flamingo and Great White Egret are shot, often on reserves and in defiance of the law, seems to me to be persuasive evidence that it is the conservation organisations that have judged the situation accurately. Such brazen instances of illegal hunting would be unusual in the extreme in the UK yet they are commonplace on Malta. Doesn’t that tell you something? Unlike some on this forum, I am pleased to see your quick and strongly worded condemnation of the most recent instance of this sort of behaviour.

"d) That Malta is on a main migrating route is another myth. It is roughly 300km away from the fringe of the main passage through the Straits of Messina".
Well, yes and no. The majority of birds probably do go further NW and via Cap Bon, but flyways are not always that narrow and substantial numbers (particularly those that are not broad winged species) would move on a broader front which would put Malta in the front line as it were. The flyway itself is so important that there can be little doubt that 12,000 hunters could make a serious dent in the viability of some declining populations – particularly if Maltese hunters have their way and are allowed to hunt during the spring.

“c) That BLM and CABS are fuelling and exaggerating these myths .... etc”.
Well, we'll have to part company on this one.

"d) .......... I would like to see the day when the hunter's federation and BL and CABS can work together to eradicate the abuses but I believe that that day is still a long way away”.
Actually, so would I and I find in your comment here a very, very small ray of hope. I find hunting distasteful and wouldn't want to do it myself, but whilst it is still legal I think some sort of concordat between the two sides would be useful. Unfortunately, just as you see BL and CABS as myth making extremists so too do we view the hunting community. However, co-operation is only likely to happen when the legitimate hunting community start recognising that there the problem on Malta IS disproportionate to that island's size and population. It also needs some recognition that the island is in a unique position and thus has a unique responsibility to offer protection to the birds that pass through. In the meantime, as I noted above, there’s nothing to stop legitimate hunters working with the authorities to identify and punish illegal ones.

One major problem though, and I do not mean this in a pejorative sense, the hunting community on Malta a uniquely parasitic one. Unlike European hunters those on Malta cannot claim to be creating suitable habitat for natural diversity or to be giving an economic value to wildernesses areas that would otherwise be ploughed up. The Maltese hunting community is, therefore, in many ways, whether they like it or not answerable to the wider European community. It’s time that they started taking responsibility for this.

I’m disappointed that, as before, Gallina, you have carefully avoided or ignored the points that I (and others) have made. Although, in fairness, given that you are one against many, this is understandable, but it does give the impression that you are being mightily selective and slippery. As for you final dig against me, I really don’t think that I have given false witness (I assume your reference is to Exodus 20:16) and am confident that all my observations can be supported by evidence (including video footage).
Inevitably, though, I too think that we have to agree to disagree and that we have reached the end of useful discussion. I’m aware that this will make me unpopular in certain quarters, but I would like to thank Gallina for entering the dragon’s den, as it were, and robustly defending his position. However much we may abhor his position, it takes a deal of guts to do so and to persist when everyone is so vehemently against you. I wouldn’t pretend that I’ve been convinced by his arguments nor that I find his sport any more attractive, but it has given everyone “on this side of the fence” the chance to understand the passionate adherence that some Maltese have for hunting. Some may feel that this interchange merely shows just how obdurate and immune to reason Maltese hunters are; Gallina probably thinks the same about us. It is my earnest hope that, in some way, Gallina can be persuaded to give up his guns – look at what Sir Peter Scott achieved after he had his Damascene conversion. However much we disagree with him, Gallina has a strong and forceful personality which is not daunted by opposition. Once he sees that birds can be there simply to enjoy and to induce a sense of delight and wonder in the natural world, then the conservation movement could use his passion. I for one would rejoice if that could be so.

Finally, I'd like to add that I find it remarkably churlish that some who have (rightly in my view) roundly condemned Gallina for some of his statements, have continued to comdemn him even on the rare occasion when we are in agreement. Let's take Gallina's words at face value as evidence of some shared ground and use it to move forward. Also, let us not dilute the word 'murder' and 'murderous' by using it in this context. Murder is when one human being kills another; to use it in this context makes murderers of us all,

John

 

[Gallina]

Shush Mr Thomas, I wasn't talking to you nor have I the desire to.

The geographical position of Malta is irrelevant to the overall discussion here, as in anyone who has a map will realise. We do not have to talk straight lines here, Malta is pretty much midway between the north African coast and Sicily irrespective of whether it lies midway along the shortest route.

Malta is at least 300km SW of the path taken by narrow-front migrating birds using the Central Mediterranean flyway. The line these birds take is the one between Cap Bon in Tunisia and Marsala in Western Sicily. Therefore Malta is definitely not in the mainstream of the Central Meditteranean flyway, but off its outer fringe. Source: UN/FAO/OIE Migratory Birds' Flyways 2005. It is a known fact, especially in hunting circles, that the numbers of migrating game birds that arrive in Malta is negligible.
I can't point you to a documented source on this one because it was said by an EU bird expert that was giving a talk here in Malta some time in the late 90's. He said that it is estimated that of all the migrating population of European birds, 0.1% pass through Malta. Of course I can't give this any weight because as I said it isn't documented, niether can I remember the name of the chap, but maybe it can cast some light on the unimportance of this tiny speck in the Med.

I am not sure how you can been unaware of the identities of at least some of these people.

I honestly don't personally know anyone that would or has shot at a protected species but yes, i'm sure that there are people out there that do, so I would encourage self regulation here. If I ever had to witness anything I'd report it immediately.

Sheer human nature says that some of the law-abiding hunters are almost certainly breaking the law some of the time.

Then they wouldn't be law-abiding would they. I can only speak for myself and for friends of mine.

 

[Gallina]

Thank you Mr Cantelo. You speak from the heart and your finely written posts always make a pleasant read. Although we do not agree on many issues it is always pleasant to discuss things with somebody that shows respect to the other person. I can only conclude that you are a true gentleman.
The reality, and here i'm only talking about the birder vs the hunter, is that we will have to live with each other. There is room for everything and everyone in life and tolerance is crucial. What we cannot have is people that break the law, whether its in England, Malta or Honolulu. On this one we should stand together. But for goodness sake, let's both do it honestly.

 

[ColonelBlimp]

Shush Mr Thomas, I wasn't talking to you nor have I the desire to.

You criticise someone for replying-at least he has, you have ignored my last few posts. I'd still like to know what kind of pleasure you gain from shooting a wild bird, if you don't mind.

The reality, and here i'm only talking about the birder vs the hunter, is that we will have to live with each other. There is room for everything and everyone in life and tolerance is crucial.

Sadly in this case, a birder can't 'bird' migrating birds if they are peppered in shot and lying around somewhere (or indeed in a cooking pot). I somehow think the BOURC wouldn't allow a bird swimming around in a stew to be tickable!

I have already explained an example of this, i.e. the turtle dove, where a widely declining population is not being helped by being "fair game" on a spread of its migration flightpath. If such hunting is sustainable, then fine-but this isn't.