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conservation of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter fishcrow
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lewis20126
Well-known member
GMK
Well-known member
I don’t think I’d wager a penny on it. There’s (far) less evidence that Slender-billed Curlew wintered (much less still winters) in Iran than there is for Ivorybills persisting in the continental United States. Many sightings, yes, in the 1990s (when the species was obviously already on its last legs), but the only documentation for these claims is a video, now seen by multiple observers with real experience of the species in the field (and I’m not talking about a Northumberland one) and museum, that shows any number of fairly bog standard Eurasian Curlews (and the same observer who shot the video is responsible for a large number of those claims). In the 1960s and pre-revolutionary 70s, when Iran was covered by IWRB counts, there was scarcely a single claim, despite there being very good field observers living there (people like Derek Scott and Lin Cornwallis, neither of whom claimed to even have a sniff of SbC, despite being on the lookout constantly). Remarkably, there’s better evidence that SbC bred in Iran (claimed by Zarudny in the late 19th C) than it ever wintered there, as at least Zarudny did shoot a SbC.
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I would be willing to bet that those who have pronounced that the evidence is weak haven't spent any time actually studying the evidence, reading the historical literature on the Ivory-billed Woodpecker, reading the contemporary literature on relevant topics such as flight mechanics, and studying the behaviors of other candidate species in the field.
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The most pressing issue is to recognize that it is not realistic to expect a clear photo to document this species at each location where it is present. There has been a long history of the species vanishing for years at a time, being rediscovered, and then vanishing again. This has been happening for nearly a century, and yet a sustained conservation effort was never established. This vicious cycle needs to be stopped. It had a serious adverse effect on the search efforts of the past decade, which wasted millions of dollars of funding by focusing on the goal of obtaining a photo. Working alone, I obtained three videos that are much better than anything that was obtained during the much larger efforts, and Geoff Hill and his colleagues had much more success in the first year, when they had a small team. It should be clear to both sides of the debate that it is unlikely that anyone will obtain a photo. So the options are to either give up or to seriously consider other forms of evidence. If a conservation effort ever gets established, the most important issue would be habitat protection. There are quite a few large flooded forests within the range of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Make sure those areas are protected. Don't send in large search teams to try to obtain a photo every time a hot zone is discovered. Learn how to reliably document this species with whatever data can be obtained, such as the remarkable flight behaviors that are easy to capture on video under conditions in which field marks are not resolved (e.g., a distant bird that is partially hidden by vegetation in poor light conditions). Someone else used the word "stupid." There has been plenty of stupidity. That's not going to cut it with this species, which needs a tireless proponent who can make a difference. Such proponents have made a difference in the conservation of many other species, such as the California Condor, Whooping Crane, Kirtland's Warbler, and Black Robin. Why has this species been neglected? Someone made the comment that you can't conserve what you can't find, but you don't need a pretty picture to conserve a species.
lewis20126
Well-known member
Yup, read most of it over the years including the original Cornell paper (still no retraction), Martin Collinson's rebuttal paper and contributed extensively to the two well known BF threads.
The evidence is very weak, indeed so weak that it is arguable whether it qualifies as evidence.
Good luck with conserving a species nobody (other than you) seems to be able to see.
cheers, alan
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
ditto ( apart from the contributions to the other two threads ). Just a few thoughts :-
1. You appear to vacilate in your views of "birders / birdwatchere". One minute they are incapable of recognising IBWO from the videos ( despite the evidence to the contrary shown in many, many of the IDthreads on here where species have been clearly ID'd from photos / videos that were comparable to your "evidence" ) and yet you are willing to use "sightings" by birders / birdwatchers when they appear to bolster your claims. Are you claiming that only birders / birdwatching that agree with you are able to ID IBWO? If so, how were they able to do this while the rest of us cannot?
2. Apart from your claim of the ddorsal pattern all other "evidence" is, at best "possible". The sound before take off? Where is the proof that the bird in the videos / you were watching made that sound? Is it possible that it was caused by something else? Woodpeckers ( those that Ive seen in Eurasia, Africa, North and South America ) do, on occasion, fly to a tree, finishing with an upward swoop. The distance of the swoop is dictated by the length of unobstructed bole. The other flight actions you describe are also part of the 'jizz' of larger Woodpeckers.
I do realise I'm only an amateur birder ( although I have, on occasion, been gainfully employed in avian conservation over the 55 years I've spent honing my knowledge ) so I suppose it's only natural that you, as a "professional conservationist" would be wary of my abilities but you should tread carefully. If there is one thing I've learned over the years is that "professional" does not always equate with competence, and "amateur" very often does not mean a lack of knowledge or ability.
1. You appear to vacilate in your views of "birders / birdwatchere". One minute they are incapable of recognising IBWO from the videos ( despite the evidence to the contrary shown in many, many of the IDthreads on here where species have been clearly ID'd from photos / videos that were comparable to your "evidence" ) and yet you are willing to use "sightings" by birders / birdwatchers when they appear to bolster your claims. Are you claiming that only birders / birdwatching that agree with you are able to ID IBWO? If so, how were they able to do this while the rest of us cannot?
2. Apart from your claim of the ddorsal pattern all other "evidence" is, at best "possible". The sound before take off? Where is the proof that the bird in the videos / you were watching made that sound? Is it possible that it was caused by something else? Woodpeckers ( those that Ive seen in Eurasia, Africa, North and South America ) do, on occasion, fly to a tree, finishing with an upward swoop. The distance of the swoop is dictated by the length of unobstructed bole. The other flight actions you describe are also part of the 'jizz' of larger Woodpeckers.
I do realise I'm only an amateur birder ( although I have, on occasion, been gainfully employed in avian conservation over the 55 years I've spent honing my knowledge ) so I suppose it's only natural that you, as a "professional conservationist" would be wary of my abilities but you should tread carefully. If there is one thing I've learned over the years is that "professional" does not always equate with competence, and "amateur" very often does not mean a lack of knowledge or ability.
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markspirito
Well-known member
Fully agree with this, lets try and preserve precious habitat such as these forests, which is never easy with the human pressure on the planet increasing continually, and just maybe the Ivory - billed Woodpecker will turn up again ....like that pair of pliers I lost in my garden shed some weeks ago, I just know they are in there somewhere !!....?
Mark
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I pointed out that bird watchers have made pronouncements about the evidence without even examining it. I don't know where you get the idea that I vacillate in my views. I am not "using" sightings by others. I simply pointed out that numerous experienced bird watchers who spent substantial amounts of time participating in the search efforts had sightings. That is a fact, and multiple sightings by experienced bird watchers is an important part of the body of evidence. The bird can be seen in the video delivering the blow. It takes off immediately after delivering the blow, and there was no drumming either before or after. This behavior is not consistent with any of the other woodpeckers, but Tanner documented the fact that Ivory-billed Woodpeckers give single and double knocks as signals. Other woodpeckers do indeed swoop upward. This is supposed to be news? But the bird in the video swoops upward on the order of five meters. There are several of these highly unusual flights, which are not consistent with other species but are consistent with Audubon's account that "The flight of this bird is graceful in the extreme." If you would actually take the time to study the data before giving your opinions, I would not have to repeat these facts here. I don't care one way or another what you think of me, but it would help to have a more meaningful discussion if you would stick to the evidence rather than attempting to smear the messenger.
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Post links to them, please!
The paper by Collinson is misleading and irrelevant. According to historical accounts, the Ivory-billed Woodpecker has a high flap rate in cruising flight, it would be expected to have a high flap rate on the basis of its known body parameters and flap rate models, and the bird in the 2008 video has a flap rate that is about double the flap rate of the Pileated Woodpecker. Collinson is not the only one who has produced misleading and irrelevant work that has clouded this issue. Louis Bevier posted an analysis several years ago that he hoped would "put this issue to rest," but it was clearly wrong and a correct analysis was already available in the literature. Bevier tried to model flap rate in terms of only one parameter, the body mass, but Pennycuick had already established in a series of papers that flap rate depends on multiple parameters, and in fact this model predicts that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker should have a higher flap rate than the Pileated Woodpecker. Bevier's flawed analysis was apparently removed after the release of a film that reveals that the even heavier Imperial Woodpecker has a high flap rate. The models are for crusing flight, but it should also be possible to statistically model takeoffs into level, non-escape flights. I have posted examples of Northern Mockingbirds and Loggerhead Shrikes taking off into level, non-escape flights. The shrike has a much higher flap rate, and the difference is obvious immediately after takeoff. In terms of flap rate, there is a similar relationship between these two superficially similar species and the two large woodpeckers. I observed Pileated Woodpeckers taking off into level, non-escape flights on a daily basis during eight years of field work. I also had several sightings of Ivory-billed Woodpeckers taking off into level, non-escape flights and captured two of them in the 2006 and 2007 videos. There is a dramatic difference between these species taking off. In my lecture on the 2007 video, there is a comparison of one of these takeoffs with takeoffs by an Imperial Woodpecker (which is remarkably similar) and takeoffs by Pileated Woodpeckers (quite different), but it is better to download the version of the comparison that is sampled at 60 frames per second at my website. The paper by Collinson was based on Pileated Woodpeckers taking off into non-level, escape flights, which is irrelevant to takeoffs into level, non-escape flights. It is clear that it is pointless to attempt to have a quality discussion on this forum, but at least I tried. I spent eight years in the field to obtain data that could make a difference in the conservation of this species. It is a shame that bird watchers are not only too lazy to study this evidence but they keep making the same false claims about the evidence that they have never bother to study. It is puzzling that many bird watchers seem to have an agenda against this issue.
The takeoffs of the mockingbird and shrike may be accessed by scrolling down to the third bullet here...
http://fishcrow.com/choc19jan07.html
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The very first post in this discussion contains a link to a series of lectures that discuss the videos and various issues that are relevant to the conservation of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Some of the evidence involves high flap rates that are difficult to display in YouTube movies, which must be sampled at 30 frames per second. It is best to download this material directly from fishcrow.com. For example, here is a comparison takeoffs of the large woodpecker in the 2007 video with takeoffs of an Imperial Woodpecker and Pileated Woodpeckers...
level takeoff comparisons
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TwoDipsfromAmsterdam
Anything About?
bunky_bouvet
Member
Ivory Billed Woodpecker's are alive and well in Boiling Spring Lakes, NC. People who purchased lot's 30 years ago and now wanting to build their retirement homes are not able too now because of this bird which is ok with me. Perhaps doing a search for BSL and the woodpecker will shed more light on the current status.
Also in BSL there is an off limit area due to the Venus Fly Trap. There is a narrow corridor where this plant grows and no where else. Very interesting for this one area that we find the IBW and the Venus Fly Trap.
bunky
Also in BSL there is an off limit area due to the Venus Fly Trap. There is a narrow corridor where this plant grows and no where else. Very interesting for this one area that we find the IBW and the Venus Fly Trap.
bunky
Thanks for point out the URL error. Here is the correct link...
http://fishcrow.com/video2007/Movie_S10.mp4
There is also a conservation area for Venus Fly Trap at Stennis Space Center, not far from the areas where I had nine IBWO sightings in 2006 and 2008, but I think this is just a coincidence since the habitats are very different.
The flap rate issue is something that would be easy to investigate for any bird watcher in the range of the Pileated Woodpecker. It might be good to start with the shrike and the mockingbird if they are present in your area. Each time you see either of these species in flight, take note of the flaps. For the shrike, they are very rapid and appear almost as a blur. For the mockingbird, the flap rate is clearly much lower. As Pennycuick mentions in one of his papers, experienced bird watchers are able to use flap rate for identification, and it's a reliable way to distinguish these superficially similar species. Once you get a feel for how different flap rates appear, you might start paying attention to every Pileated Woodpecker you see taking off into level, non-escape flights. After you get a good feel for it, that would be a good time to go back and watch the comparisons of the takeoffs of the bird in the 2007 video, the Imperial Woodpecker, and the Pileated Woodpecker. The difference between the flaps of the Ivory-billed and the Pileated are as dramatic as the difference between the flaps of the shrike and the mockingbird. This is one of several flight characteristics that can be used to reliably identify Ivory-billed Woodpeckers in videos in which field marks are not resolved.
lewis20126
Well-known member
I've been lucky enough to see eight of the nine extant Campephilus in the field, the most recent the splendens form of C. haematogaster, in Darien a few weeks ago, the individual in the picture first located by BF's Xenospiza in Darien. In almost all encounters with the genus, it is the vocalizations which draw the attention, the loud double knocks being particularly easy to detect if the birds are around. Anyone seriously interested in finding birds of this genus would focus on vocalisations (and then photos), not on meaningless, untestable theories of flap rates...
cheers, a
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I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago, but I will tear this comment apart just for the fun of it. There are historical accounts of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker having a high flap rate. There are established models for flap rate, and they predict that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker has a high flap rate. A high flap rate is audible in the wingbeats of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker in flight in the Singer Tract film. We also have a film of the closely related Imperial Woodpecker that has a high flap rate in flight. One of the videos shows a bird that was analyzed by the world's leading expert on woodpecker flight mechanics, who concluded that the bird is a large woodpecker based on the wing motion. The flap rate of that bird is about double the flap rate of the Pileated Woodpecker, which rules out that species. Video footage has also been obtained of level takeoffs with rapid flaps that are very similar to the rapid flaps of an Imperial Woodpecker taking off. I have a busy life. Nothing productive has come out of the discussions on this forum. I thank those who are seriously interested in the conservation of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker who commented, but I have better things to do with my time than to participate in useless discussions.
lewis20126
Well-known member
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