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harrier id east coast (3 Viewers)

To me this is fairly clear-cut Pallid harrier.

The pale crown is of little relevance since both Pallid and Monty's may show this feature in juvenile plumage. On the other the combination of rather pale head (pale crown and relatively pale nape) and the dark cheek-patch largely reaching the malar area is not at all common in Montagu's, but still fairly typical for Pallid.

The wingtip to tail ration has already been mentionned and while this may not be a bullet-proof feature, the wingtip falling well short of the tailtip strongly favours Pallid has other have mentionned. In term of general appearance, this translates into a rather stocky bird lacking the attenuated rear end of Monty's.

But I will mainly also insist of the face pattern. Once you have your eyes tuned into it, the aggressive face pattern of a juv Pallid is readily told from the "goofy" face of a juv Monty's and will be in most cases instantly recognizable. I believe it to be the case here.
To give a bit more details:
- note how the supercilium appear narrow, rather long (starting well in front of the eye) with and up-turned rear end. This would be extremely unusual for a Monty's which normaly shows a shortish, broader supercilium that wraps around the rear-end of the eye.
- note also the size discrepancy between the supercilium and the white Crescent below the eye. In the overwhelming majority of juv Monty's, the supercilium and the crescent are approximatively of the same size while this descrepancy is very typical for juv Pallid.

And while it might be a bit far-fetched, there is a bit of primary pattern visible. Best seen on that pic I think: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/538007/cat/recent/limit/recent
The outer primaries seem to show a rather short and well defined black-tip implying that the fingers are mostly pale...

The wingtip tail ratio can be seen here, first Montagu's: http://www.indianaturewatch.net/view_cat.php?tag=Montagu\'s Harrier&view_all and Pallid: http://www.indianaturewatch.net/view_cat.php?tag=Pallid Harrier&view_all

JanJ
 
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It becomes quite obvious that the Montagu's link did not work but the pallid does. Search in the upper field for Montagus!

JanJ

Well it does work now.
Another feature that can be seen is the primary spacing on the folded primaries on the young birds, slight difference it appears...
 
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See post 39. The subject bird does not imo show 'limited white around the eye'.

Compare the subject bird to plates 214 and 215. Ok, a flight shot of the subject bird showing the boomerang at the bases of the primaries would settle the ID. But without that, can you say for certain that the subject bird matches plates 214 and 215? No, it matches plate 245. Note the Finnish bird does show a perfect underwing (not a great 'boomerang' or barring). Non of the features on the Finnish bird are extreme or perfect.

Compare these to the subject bird:

http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/tom.lindroos/montagu.s.harrier.1.html

Strong facial pattern, limited white above eye:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=j...Ku7qhjsgCFUs7FAodTHUIDw#imgrc=hxYEE3ExmcZq8M:

Dark reaching base of bill:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2jaKqlV5_u0/VEEdUgL2VOI/AAAAAAAARgo/qqBaaM45Zk0/s1600/1mont.JPG

http://rene.dumoulin.oiseaux.net/images/busard.cendre.redu.23g.jpg

I haven't said "it's not a Pallid", I'm just asking if you can say for sure that it is.

So who is saying that this bird is definitely a Pallid Harrier based on these images?
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Finally got home and had a chance to dig out my copy of Forsman, and take a look at the fabled "plate 245". Hope no one minds posting a crop of it. If so will delete.

Wow. It's a fairly standard Monty's isn't it? Sure a prominent collar as Monty's goes...but really obvious streaking within it.

The face mask is nothing at all like the subject bird. Just barely joining the gape in a thin taper with a clear white division between the bill and mask. In fact the accompanying caption states as much. Hardly a match for the subject bird under discussion.

Owen
 

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I'm a bit confused about who's saying what now!

Owen....what 'is a standard Monty's', the original bird?

Lost track of all the links, attachments and opinions, please summarise your opinion of the original bird.

Cheers, Andy
 
I'm a bit confused about who's saying what now!

Owen....what 'is a standard Monty's', the original bird?

Lost track of all the links, attachments and opinions, please summarise your opinion of the original bird.

Cheers, Andy

No. "Plate 245" is a standard Monty's.

The original subject bird is a Pallid Harrier in my book for all the reasons previously listed, which in fairness have been summarised several times by several contributors.

Owen
 
Thanks Owen for clarification.

Although far from expert I did think it was more Pallid like but without the experience to say why, I just sat and watched the debate with interest and as I said in my earlier post, I would have been very excited had I found this bird.

The movement of Pallid's in NW Europe this year must be the biggest on record?

Andy
 
Thanks Owen for clarification.

Although far from expert I did think it was more Pallid like but without the experience to say why, I just sat and watched the debate with interest and as I said in my earlier post, I would have been very excited had I found this bird.

The movement of Pallid's in NW Europe this year must be the biggest on record?

Andy

I'm not sure what the record stands at. For this autumn in Finland the tally was 280 up to the 16th. http://www.tarsiger.com/news/index.php?lang=eng

There has been more since, but the pace of records has slowed.

But I would bet that many birds are en route or already in western Europe/Britain.
Birders paying close attention to harrier roosts or good hunting habitat would pay dividends.

Owen
 
I hope one flies over Twickenham next week....

I think, also, that the general concensus is Pallid. As Tconzemi stated when Tib78 has commented on id there is rarely a need to go further!

I should add that in no way is that disrespectful to the other posters or Owen (who initiallly questioned the id) but in the most part the thread has been very enlightening - I just need to see one now and then be able to identify the traits in the field.....
 
I'm not sure what the record stands at. For this autumn in Finland the tally was 280 up to the 16th. http://www.tarsiger.com/news/index.php?lang=eng

There has been more since, but the pace of records has slowed.

But I would bet that many birds are en route or already in western Europe/Britain.
Birders paying close attention to harrier roosts or good hunting habitat would pay dividends.

Owen

I'd like to know what the Finnish population now is? They seem to be getting more common, last year we found this one in St Petersburg Russia whilst at the same time there was one in North Scotland on Shetland.

This year there have already been I think 5 including the bird in this thread (?) this autumn so far in the UK including one right down in Kent.

Please don't tell me this is a Monty's!!!!

Cheers, Andy
 

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I'd like to know what the Finnish population now is? They seem to be getting more common, last year we found this one in St Petersburg Russia whilst at the same time there was one in North Scotland on Shetland.

This year there have already been I think 5 including the bird in this thread (?) this autumn so far in the UK including one right down in Kent.

Please don't tell me this is a Monty's!!!!

Cheers, Andy

Same Tarsiger link quotes 11 breeding pairs this year. With around 260 having gone through in spring on passage.

Owen
 
Just for the sake of it Greg, here´s a Pallid x Montagu´s Finland Aug. 1993, at least that´s what the caption say´s and the photographer is DF
The article here and page 270.
http://www.limicola.de/fileadmin/us...mente/Lontkowski_SkakujWeihenLimicola1995.pdf

JanJ

Thanks a million for this Jan! I had wanted to see those pics for years. What I find reassuring is that both hybrids look like real weirdos. Coming across one of these in the field I would have have scratched my head for quite a while I think.
The left bird certainly looks closer to Montagu's but the right one is closer to Pallid to my eyes.
Extremely interesting in any case.

And while we are at it, here is a pic (not mine) from a putative Monty's x Pallid taken in Falsterbo IIRC. To me this bird is a weirdo too and seemingly show a mix of characters. It looks like an excellent Monty's x Pallid candidate to me, and I believe Master Forsman felt the same.

And thanks for the vote of confidence Tom ;) !
 

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Finally got home and had a chance to dig out my copy of Forsman, and take a look at the fabled "plate 245". Hope no one minds posting a crop of it. If so will delete.

Wow. It's a fairly standard Monty's isn't it? Sure a prominent collar as Monty's goes...but really obvious streaking within it.

The face mask is nothing at all like the subject bird. Just barely joining the gape in a thin taper with a clear white division between the bill and mask. In fact the accompanying caption states as much. Hardly a match for the subject bird under discussion.

Owen


With regards the subject bird, I only raised the question as I wanted a sensible debate about the ID. When Forsman and Garner question whether these birds can ever be done on the deck, I think I'm entitled to ask if the ID of the subject bird can be done with certainty.

Fwiw, I think this bird might have been photographed elsewhere (I would need to compare the images when I have time) and if so, the ID as Pallid is beyond doubt.

I am also grateful to others in this thread for their comments as I believe this bird is doable as a Pallid on the deck thanks to them.

I think people need to be wary though as there are some odd looking birds out there and there is certainly no uniformity in plumage.

Montagu's:

http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/tom.lindroos/images/busard.cendre.toli.1g.jpg

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=849&Location= !!?

Worth posting this link again (any comments? Tib78? Re: 'never reaching gape'?):

http://rene.dumoulin.oiseaux.net/images/busard.cendre.redu.23g.jpg

Note that with many Pallids, the dark patch also does not reach the gape:

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=101621&p=12

Some birds labelled as Pallid are very similar to plate 245 (and the dark patch reaches the gape). The ID for these birds could perhaps be debated.....

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=108886&p=6

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=109127&p=3


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With regards the subject bird, I only raised the question as I wanted a sensible debate about the ID. When Forsman and Garner question whether these birds can ever be done on the deck, I think I'm entitled to ask if the ID of the subject bird can be done with certainty.

Fwiw, I think this bird might have been photographed elsewhere (I would need to compare the images when I have time) and if so, the ID as Pallid is beyond doubt.

I am also grateful to others in this thread for their comments as I believe this bird is doable as a Pallid on the deck thanks to them.

I think people need to be wary though as there are some odd looking birds out there and there is certainly no uniformity in plumage.

Montagu's:

http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/tom.lindroos/images/busard.cendre.toli.1g.jpg

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=849&Location= !!?

Worth posting this link again (any comments? Tib78? Re: 'never reaching gape'?):

http://rene.dumoulin.oiseaux.net/images/busard.cendre.redu.23g.jpg

Note that with many Pallids, the dark patch also does not reach the gape:

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=101621&p=12

Some birds labelled as Pallid are very similar to plate 245 (and the dark patch reaches the gape). The ID for these birds could perhaps be debated.....

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=108886&p=6

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=847&Bird_Image_ID=109127&p=3


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Andy,

Trying to make sense of what you say. IIt's tough going.

Again it seems to me from above you are again confused about the difference between reaching the gape (Montys) and lower mandible (Pallid).

If there are shots of the same subject bird from elsewhere...Please share..would be great to see them.

Your last 2 links look to be the same bird and is Monty's for me. Indistinct collar, which is streaked. Monty's face pattern. Streaked breast. Primaries are shorter than tail...but only just.

Owen
 
Andy,

Trying to make sense of what you say. IIt's tough going.

Again it seems to me from above you are again confused about the difference between reaching the gape (Montys) and lower mandible (Pallid).

If there are shots of the same subject bird from elsewhere...Please share..would be great to see them.

Your last 2 links look to be the same bird and is Monty's for me. Indistinct collar, which is streaked. Monty's face pattern. Streaked breast. Primaries are shorter than tail...but only just.

Owen

and the dark cheek-patch largely reaching the malar area is not at all common in Montagu's, but still fairly typical for Pallid.
...

Many Pallid show a dark patch that does not reach the gape let alone the lower mandible. The images I posted show Monties where the dark patch can reach the lower mandible.

I didn't have to look too hard for the images above and I believe they reinforce the points that I've made so far.

If it's confusing, well, that's because identifying juv harriers isn't easy.

.
 
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Many Pallid show a dark patch that does not reach the gape let alone the lower mandible. The images I posted show Monties where the dark patch can reach the lower mandible.

I didn't have to look too hard for the images above and I believe they reinforce the points that I've made so far.

If it's confusing, well, that's because identifying juv harriers isn't easy.

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Which, in your view, show a Monty's with the face mask reaching the lower mandible? Nine of the links in your last post show this in my view.

Yes. Pallid can sometimes show a less defined face mask. And those would be tricky birds on the deck. But the subject bird does not show this...hence why most leaned towards Pallid.

Owen
 
Thanks a million for this Jan! I had wanted to see those pics for years. What I find reassuring is that both hybrids look like real weirdos. Coming across one of these in the field I would have have scratched my head for quite a while I think.
The left bird certainly looks closer to Montagu's but the right one is closer to Pallid to my eyes.
Extremely interesting in any case.

And while we are at it, here is a pic (not mine) from a putative Monty's x Pallid taken in Falsterbo IIRC. To me this bird is a weirdo too and seemingly show a mix of characters. It looks like an excellent Monty's x Pallid candidate to me, and I believe Master Forsman felt the same.

And thanks for the vote of confidence Tom ;) !

Much discussions about this bird and DF based his thinkings on the pattern of the primaries. I my opinion it looks like a good Montagu`s exept for the short p10 (outermost), which is more in line for Pallid, that is to say, p10 falls approx in line with or in between p5/6. However, ther´s certainly some variation to this.
More pic:https://artportalen.se/Mobile/Image/1111660
Also not the two videos in the begining.

Cheers

JanJ
 
Which, in your view, show a Monty's with the face mask reaching the lower mandible? Nine of the links in your last post show this in my view.

Yes. Pallid can sometimes show a less defined face mask. And those would be tricky birds on the deck. But the subject bird does not show this...hence why most leaned towards Pallid.

Owen

Haha! Then it's not me that misunderstands where the gape ends and the bill begins. :t:
 
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