Kowa 883 - best arca swiss plate? (1 Viewer)

[rpg51]

AP - bear with with me here.

I have the Desmond DPL-115 with the lip against the rear of the scope foot. I have the IShoot 5160 mounted to the Desmond plate. To mount the iShoot to the Desmond it was necessary to remove one of two safety hex screws that come with the Desmond plate and then I reinstalled the hex screw. The Desmond and scope now will not slide off the iShoot adapter with the small hex safety screws in place. So that provides a degree of safety.

With that I can mount the whole assembly, (scope, Desmond, iShoot adapter), to the VH-10x fluid head clamp, which also has safety pins. The iShoot has the ability to slide a tiny bit fore and aft on the clamp when loosened. So that seems fine. The Desmond plate can slide a good distance on the iShoot, which allows for a decent amount of fore and aft adjustment to balance the scope, so that seems fine.

Do I have it set up correctly?

While I am very optimistic about twisting control, and it is worth it just for that for sure, the one aspect of this that does not really accomplish my original goal is that I have to remove the iShoot adapter from the Desmond plate when I need to mount the scope to my light tripod set up, which has a Sirui VA-5 fluid head which is arca swiss compatible. It seems that the task of removing the iShoot adapter from the Desmond is not much different than the task of switching plates. Do you have any suggestions how I might set this all up so that I have safety pins, but I also can more easily get the iShoot adapter off the desmnod when I need to use my other head?

Rob.

 

[Alexis Powell]

That all seems good. As I noted in an earlier post, I find safety pins nothing but trouble so I never use them. Remove one and the adapter can be pulled off or slipped on again quickly. Sorry, but that is the only solution I know. Hope you find it satisfactory. The whole thing should be secure when the clamp is tightened. -- AP

 

[Alexis Powell]

Is it possible to leave the adapter on and push it far enough to one end that the plate could still be mounted on the VA-5? I don't have it to try. -- AP

 

[rpg51]

Thanks AP. I think there are longer Desmond plates, (like the one you recommended above ), that probably have enough room to mount the thing to the VA-5 with the adapter slid to one end. This one might even do it. I will try that.

I expect this will work to solve my immediate problem using this scope on the two tripods and I appreciate the advice. I am expecting to have a number of additional optical devices in the near future, including camera bodies and binocular tripod holders. I want to use these devices on both heads. It seems this may require multiple iShoot adapters, one for each optical device? AP - I see from your earlier posts you are using multiple optical devices as well. AP, how do you handle this problem? Multiple iShoot adapters?

In the long run I would prefer to have all my tripod head clamps compatible with arca-swiss. I like the Sirui VH-10x a lot. But, I do not like the fact that the clamp is not arca-swiss compatible. Kirk sells a replacement top plate and clamp for the similar Manfrotto 500AH fluid head that converts it to arca-swiss compatibility. See Quick Release Bridge System for the Manfrotto MVH 500 Fluid Video Head - Quick Release Clamps | Kirk Photo. I don't know if there is a similar replacement top plate for the Sirui VH-10x. But, this sort of solution may be the best route because this way all your optical devices can be mounted with an arca-swiss plate and you are good to go without adapters on every device.

Something to consider.

Rob.

EDIT - I checked with Kirk. They do not make a similar replacement top plate for the VH-10x. I have seen an adapter somewhere that basically sticks an arca-swiss compatible clamp on top of a manfrotto type plate that can be clamped into any manfrotto type head clamp. I believe the one I saw was designed so that the arca swiss clamp can be rotated to a horizontal or a longitudinal orientation and clamped firmly with a mechanical design that prevents unwanted rotation. I'll seach around and see if I can find it again. Its seems that this might work to convert both the VH-10x and the MVH 500AH to arca swiss.

EDIT #2 - I just ordered a Manfrotto MVH 500AH head and a Kirk top plate with a Kirk aftermarket top plate and arca-swiss compatible clamp. I am going to return my Sirui VH10x, not because I don't like the head, I do, but only because I can't find a way to satisfactorilly convert the head to an arca swiss clamp which I am convinced is the best way to go. I'll probably use the Desmond plate on my Kowa scope (it seems to work very well to eliminate twist) and I'll clamp it directly to the 500AH head using the Kirk top plate and clamp. Ugh, what an ordeal. When I start getting my camera equipment I will likely get a Kirk leveling base for my tripod and some arca swiss plates for the camera bodies. I have a collecion of adapters I've accumulated in the last couple of weeks. I'll probably hang onto it all for a while until I am settled down with all this stuff.

Thank you all for helping me navigate through all this.

 

[Alexis Powell]

Thanks AP. I think there are longer Desmond plates, (like the one you recommended above ), that probably have enough room to mount the thing to the VA-5 with the adapter slid to one end. This one might even do it. I will try that.

I expect this will work to solve my immediate problem using this scope on the two tripods and I appreciate the advice. I am expecting to have a number of additional optical devices in the near future, including camera bodies and binocular tripod holders. I want to use these devices on both heads. It seems this may require multiple iShoot adapters, one for each optical device? AP - I see from your earlier posts you are using multiple optical devices as well. AP, how do you handle this problem? Multiple iShoot adapters?

In the long run I would prefer to have all my tripod head clamps compatible with arca-swiss. I like the Sirui VH-10x a lot. But, I do not like the fact that the clamp is not arca-swiss compatible. Kirk sells a replacement top plate and clamp for the similar Manfrotto 500AH fluid head that converts it to arca-swiss compatibility. See Quick Release Bridge System for the Manfrotto MVH 500 Fluid Video Head - Quick Release Clamps | Kirk Photo. I don't know if there is a similar replacement top plate for the Sirui VH-10x. But, this sort of solution may be the best route because this way all your optical devices can be mounted with an arca-swiss plate and you are good to go without adapters on every device.

Something to consider.

Rob.

EDIT - I checked with Kirk. They do not make a similar replacement top plate for the VH-10x. I have seen an adapter somewhere that basically sticks an arca-swiss compatible clamp on top of a manfrotto type plate that can be clamped into any manfrotto type head clamp. I believe the one I saw was designed so that the arca swiss clamp can be rotated to a horizontal or a longitudinal orientation and clamped firmly with a mechanical design that prevents unwanted rotation. I'll seach around and see if I can find it again. Its seems that this might work to convert both the VH-10x and the MVH 500AH to arca swiss.

EDIT #2 - I just ordered a Manfrotto MVH 500AH head and a Kirk top plate with a Kirk aftermarket top plate and arca-swiss compatible clamp. I am going to return my Sirui VH10x, not because I don't like the head, I do, but only because I can't find a way to satisfactorilly convert the head to an arca swiss clamp which I am convinced is the best way to go. I'll probably use the Desmond plate on my Kowa scope (it seems to work very well to eliminate twist) and I'll clamp it directly to the 500AH head using the Kirk top plate and clamp. Ugh, what an ordeal. When I start getting my camera equipment I will likely get a Kirk leveling base for my tripod and some arca swiss plates for the camera bodies. I have a collecion of adapters I've accumulated in the last couple of weeks. I'll probably hang onto it all for a while until I am settled down with all this stuff.

Thank you all for helping me navigate through all this.

Hi Rob,

Sorry for the slow reply, but it seems at this point that you've got it sorted, likely to your satisfaction. That Kirk retrofit for Manfrotto is cool!

To answer your question about how I manage with a diversity of equipment, I've accumulated a variety of pieces and over the years with several odd one-off setups, but those aside, I manage as follows: All my photo gear is on natively or retrofitted Arca-type custom plates, lipped plates, or brackets (mostly from RRS) that operate in the RRS/Kirk gear universe. I mostly use ballheads (various sizes) for photography (and sometimes with light scopes, like my Nikon 50ED), all of which are fitted with RRS or equivalent Arca-type clamps. My smaller birding scopes are on Arca-type lipped plates. I keep a Desmond DGZA-1 (discontinued, cheaper, slightly smoother, more refined that the iShoot 5160) adapter slipped onto each of those so they can be used with my two-way heads that use the wider Gitzo/Manfrotto/Sirui sliding plate standard. Adapting the Arca-plates in that way works especially nicely with my favorite very light-weight two-way head, the Gitzo GH1720QR (which I notice is back in stock at B&H--has it been resurrected from being discontinued, or is this new old stock?). That solution doesn't look as elegant with my Sirui VH-10X and Manfrotto 502AH heads, and I don't generally desire to use small scopes on those heads, but it works just fine if I do so on rare occasion. Back when I didn't own any spares, I used to just leave a plate adapter clamped in the Gitzo 1720QR head so it was at hand any time I wanted to use it with a smaller scope or camera lens on an Arca-type plate. My larger scopes are mounted on (the wider standard) sliding plates from Gitzo or Manfrotto which I customized by removing all rubber and reshaping the metal top of the plate (with a Dremel or similar tools) so they are a perfect fit to the tripod foot and cannot rotate. Those scopes work directly in my two-way heads, all of which use that wider sliding plate standard. If I ever wanted to use one of the big scopes with one of my ballheads for some reason, I would have to take the trouble to remove the plate and put the scope on an Arca-type lipped sliding plate (like those from Desmond or RRS). I've never wanted to do that. On rare occasion, I do use a big camera lens on a two-way head, in which case I simply slip on an adapter.

Your question inspired me to inventory my equipment and I discovered some things worth noting about my iShoot 5160 adapters. I hadn't ever even removed them from packaging (having bought two for spares now that Desmond and Gitzo no longer offer similar), but on so doing I noted that they are not quite as well finished as my Desmond adapters. Still, I found they worked fine to fit a Desmond Arca-type plate to my Gitzo and Manfrotto heads, but (in one case) not to fit the Desmond plate to my Sirui VH-10x. The combo was too tight to slip into the slot in the Sirui head to reach the clamp! On close inspection, I found that the offending iShoot 5160 was slightly taller than my Desmond adapters. I used a broad metal file, followed by sandpaper, to remove ~0.5 mm of metal from the entire bottom surface of the plate. It now works perfectly (but what a hassle!). I bought that plate a few years ago, so with any luck iShoot is making the adapters better and more consistently now.

--AP

 

[rpg51]

I appreciate all the input and advice. But, yes, I do think I have things sorted out now. My needs are not as extensive as yours. I am not a professional photographer etc. This is a serious hobby for me. This system I am settling on should meet my needs which are to have two tripods (heavy and light) and a easy worry free way to attach a variety of scopes and cameras to both without a lot of fuss. The small video heads converted where needed to arca swiss clamps will work fine for everything I do. Arca-swiss plates are available for all the cameras and scopes etc. I will use. The arca swiss plates with lips to prevent twisting on my Kowa scope foot work very well. Good to go. I wish this was more standardized. I'm lucky I did not drop any equipment while I was fiddling around with all this. Kowa really should give consumers some guidance regarding the use of plates to prevent twisting.

 

[Hans Weigum]

..................... Kowa really should give consumers some guidance regarding the use of plates to prevent twisting.

If this optical industry, not just Kowa, could agree to a single genuinely sound universal design, integral to the interface between optical device and attachments, similar to:

Die Arri-Rosette

the permanent discussions on Arca-Swiss-type plates being not satisfactory, might come to an end.

But, with one better engineered, truely univeral solution, also an absurdly diversified business with its multitude of dedicated single purpose adapters could collapse as well. Of course this would not be in the interest of this industry and some of its seemingly idealistic-naive followers, pretending that cosmetics, as a better finish could save an ill-conceived design.

Hans

 

[Hauksen]

If this optical industry, not just Kowa, could agree to a single genuinely sound universal design, integral to the interface between optical device and attachments, similar to:

Die Arri-Rosette

Hi Hans,

Thanks for the link! I had always thought it was Hellmuth Hirth who invented this concept, now I learned it was actually his father Albert - and that Albert also invented the four-colour ballpoint pen 🙃

Since you earlier mentioned cost, wouldn't a Hirth joint be more expensive than the simple plates we're currently stuck with?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Alexis Powell]

If this optical industry, not just Kowa, could agree to a single genuinely sound universal design, integral to the interface between optical device and attachments, similar to:

Die Arri-Rosette

the permanent discussions on Arca-Swiss-type plates being not satisfactory, might come to an end.

But, with one better engineered, truely univeral solution, also an absurdly diversified business with its multitude of dedicated single purpose adapters could collapse as well. Of course this would not be in the interest of this industry and some of its seemingly idealistic-naive followers, pretending that cosmetics, as a better finish could save an ill-conceived design.

Hans

Yes, "If..." then someday, maybe roughly ~50 years after its absolutely universal adoption, users like me will be free of those nasty products from RRS, Kirk, etc. I'm basing this estimated period on the amount of time that it will take before most products in current production that do not use the new magic standard (that somehow fits elegantly into the design of everything from huge lenses/scopes, to skinny objects like cell phones and camera bodies, to you name it) will no longer be in much use. I base my guesstimate on the fact that many of my current use lenses (e.g. many old manual-focus Nikon), macro-brackets, extension tubes, scopes are designs that are decades (sometimes many decades!) old and that I suspect will continue to be very useful for decades to come. Until all those items have been sent to landfills or museums, I think it is nice to know that there are solid solutions for using them with tripods, brackets, etc.

--AP

PS: W/respect to the description "seemingly idealistic-naive followers" I think pragmatic customers might be more accurate. Who is being naively idealistic?

 

[rpg51]

I'm not gonna hold my breath.

I'll repeat that in the real world we live in today Kowa should advise consumers about steps they can take to prevent their $3K spotting scopes from falling off the tripod to the asphalt. Given the modification they made to the foot on the new scope, they are obviously aware that there is a problem with the foot on the 883.

 

[rpg51]

Here is another solution from Kirk. This can be used on any head that receives manfrotto style plates. Looks like it will work on both the Manfrotto MVH 500 AH fluid head and the Sirui VH 10x. In retrospect, this looks like this will work well, and it appears be more versatile than the Kirk top plate replacement and clamp that I just ordered which only works on the MVH 500AH.

Universal Quick Release Adapter with Quick Release Clamp-use to convert to arca-swiss

KES specialty universal quick release system

www.kirkphoto.com

 

[Hans Weigum]

Hi Hans,

Thanks for the link! I had always thought it was Hellmuth Hirth who invented this concept, now I learned it was actually his father Albert - and that Albert also invented the four-colour ballpoint pen 🙃

Since you earlier mentioned cost, wouldn't a Hirth joint be more expensive than the simple plates we're currently stuck with?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Hallo Henning

Such Hirth-type couplings are not just an idea borrowed from a different world, they get regularly used by camera professionals, often using equipment considerably heavier than average amateurs do:

Arri Standard Rosette Bolt-On Mount (M6 Thread)

Arri Standard Rosette Bolt-On Mount (M6 Thread)【SmallRig - DIY Camera Rigs, Stabilizers and Other Camera Accessories】

www.smallrig.com

This particular Hirth-type coupling can obviously be produced at a moderate price, considering that the part quoted here includes additional components redundant for a QC-system. Selecting a suitable type of steel, this part can be net shape (cold) forged resulting in a strain- hardened part needing hardly any supplementary machining.

As loads of rotation and translation get evenly spread, such an Hirth-type coupling could also be made out of a material with less ductile
strength as used for injection moulding or die casting, integral to bottoms of cameras or sockets of spotting scopes. As the centrally located thread gets completely protected from shear forces, the screw needs less tightening than without a splined coupling, reducing strain on the integral threaded bore of the optical device often getting overloaded at present.

Fully aware, that the Arri Rosette alone serves not as a quick coupling, but it can be a part in solving the problem of rotation, without having to resort to friction at all.

All Arca-Swiss-type QC-systems known however, even those using pins or lips against rotation, depend on friction somehow. Or if they don't, they expose the screw to shear, a type of load screws are not designed for.

Hans

 

[Alexis Powell]

Here is another solution from Kirk. This can be used on any head that receives manfrotto style plates. Looks like it will work on both the Manfrotto MVH 500 AH fluid head and the Sirui VH 10x. In retrospect, this looks like this will work well, and it appears be more versatile than the Kirk top plate replacement and clamp that I just ordered which only works on the MVH 500AH.

Universal Quick Release Adapter with Quick Release Clamp-use to convert to arca-swiss

KES specialty universal quick release system

www.kirkphoto.com

That's a handy product for folks w/heritage equipment that they want to convert and keep using, but it isn't nearly as elegant as the part you ordered. I think, for your purposes, you made the right selection.

--AP

 

[Hauksen]

Fully aware, that the Arri Rosette alone serves not as a quick coupling, but it can be a part in solving the problem of rotation, without having to resort to friction at all.

All Arca-Swiss-type QC-systems known however, even those using pins or lips against rotation, depend on friction somehow. Or if they don't, they expose the screw to shear, a type of load screws are not designed for.

Hallo Hans,

Thanks a lot, your post really dropped several coins for me Guess it's a case where "good enough" has been the enemy of "good"!

I would think that this would be a solution for a backwards-compatible scope foot ... give it a Hirth ring recessed below the foot's plan bottom surface. That won't interfere with existing QRC plates, and allow perfect mounting on purpose-built QRC plates.

That might be a way to beat AP's "50 years" prediction for a change-over ... I tend to agree with him that an incompatible system would be terribly hard to sell, even if it was a clear improvement.

Regards,

Henning

 

[rpg51]

Status Update

My original goal was to get two tripod set ups - one light and one heavy - to use with my scope and cameras.

I now have a good solid functioning heavy set up. Good beefy legs and a Manfrotto 500 ah fluid head converted to arca swiss with a Kirk replacement top plate and clamp. My initial problem with the big Kowa scope rotating and loosening from the plate has been solved with an arca swiss plate that has a horizontal brace incorporated that snugs up against the Kowa foot. This set up works well. No twisting issues. Nice functional fluid head. Unlike some folks I like to have safety stops incorporated in the system. The plate I am using now has two small pin/screws, one in each end, that prevents the plate from sliding off the clamp should the clamp loosen a bit. So, mission accomplished for the heavy set up.

Sadly, my light weight set up is not working quite the way I hoped. I have a Sirui VA-5 head which is arca swiss. I like it. But, the problem is that the arca swiss plates I settled on for my heavy tripod set up have the small safety screws in each end, and they will not slide onto the Siriu head clamp which has an integrated safety stop design that requires the plates be slid on to the head, rather than popped on from above. As a consequence, I have to remove the safety screws in the plates, or change plates, to switch from one head to the other. I have not found a way around this problem. Its not the end of the world, but it is a PIA.

I am searching around for a another solution for the light weight system. Cheapest way might be to stick a Kirk clamp on the plate that comes with the Siriu VA-5. Or, sell the VA-5 and find a different small fluid head, or even a ball head, that will accept my plates with safety screws.

 

[Tringa45]

Sadly, my light weight set up is not working quite the way I hoped. I have a Sirui VA-5 head which is arca swiss. I like it. But, the problem is that the arca swiss plates I settled on for my heavy tripod set up have the small safety screws in each end, and they will not slide onto the Siriu head clamp which has an integrated safety stop design that requires the plates be slid on to the head, rather than popped on from above. As a consequence, I have to remove the safety screws in the plates, or change plates, to switch from one head to the other. I have not found a way around this problem. Its not the end of the world, but it is a PIA.

I have an Arca-Swiss compatible Sirui L-10 tilt head on a monopod. If the safety retention on the VA-5 is the same, then you merely need to depress the red release button to get the plate on from the top.

John

 

[rpg51]

I have an Arca-Swiss compatible Sirui L-10 tilt head on a monopod. If the safety retention on the VA-5 is the same, then you merely need to depress the red release button to get the plate on from the top.

John

Thanks, but, on the VA-5, as far as I can tell, it is impossible to load a plate from the top. The red button makes no difference. I may just stick on a Kirk adapter and the same Kirk clamp I am using with my heavy set up. But, that will be another $100. Or, maybe sell the VA-5 in favor of another head that will work. I have not found anything yet.

 

[Tringa45]

Thanks, but, on the VA-5, as far as I can tell, it is impossible to load a plate from the top. The red button makes no difference. I may just stick on a Kirk adapter and the same Kirk clamp I am using with my heavy set up. But, that will be another $100. Or, maybe sell the VA-5 in favor of another head that will work. I have not found anything yet.

Really? Doesn't the clamp open enough to get the plate on from the top?

 

[rpg51]

No, it does not. Unless I am missing something. And, I don't think I am.

I just took a peak at a pic of your L-10. The clamp on the L-10 is completely different than the clamp on the VA-5.

 

[Alexis Powell]

No, it does not. Unless I am missing something. And, I don't think I am.

I just took a peak at a pic of your L-10. The clamp on the L-10 is completely different than the clamp on the VA-5.

As you know, I'm one who doesn't mess w/safety screws as I don't see how they help in a field setting (makes more sense in the studio, wher one might be quickly switching things around from one head or clamp to another, and where everything is level enough that one might get lazy tightening clamps). That said, are you sure it is the safety screws in the plate that are the problem? These various heads from Gitzo, Manfrotto, Sirui, have their own safety stops that catch on parts of the machined plate. Sometimes they make certain plates hard to use (i.e. can only be inserted from one direction). You are right that the Sirui VA-5 and VH-10X video heads can't be top-loaded.

--AP