Need advice for 60mm scope and oculars (1 Viewer)

[LucaPCP]

I'd like to buy my first scope, finally.

I value some portability, so my preference is for a 60mm scope; I am closely looking at the Opticron MM4, but I am open to alternatives.

With 60mm, my priority would likely be a wide-angle 30x ocular, which would give me (hopefully) high quality, a 2mm exit pupil, and wide field of view (again hopefully). I am less interested in zoom oculars: in the ~15x range, I have my Kite 16x42 that works, and in the ~50x range, I think a 60mm scope would not be very usable.

Given this, what do you advise me to get? I am flexible price-wise, I'd like to get something of good enough quality to be happy with it for a looong time.

Many thanks!! -Luca

 

[Ratal]

Opticron MM4 ED version.

I took a MM4 50 ED from the arctic to deserts, and loved every second of carrying it. I do use the zoom exclusively though - as in mega bright light such as snow fields or desert / Tropics? There is plenty of light to go round.

Edit to add - I sold my Meopta S2 - was not even a thing I lost any sleep over either as the portability and view of the MM4 50 more than made up for any losses as it simply got taken more places and gives me much, much more enjoyment.

 

[Vespobuteo]

The MM4 is a good entry level scope but if it will last for a loooong time, I don't know...

Be sure to get the ED-version, MM4 60 ED. The Zoom SDL v3 15-45x is more flexible than a fixed 30x and only 2mm EP is on the low side.

If you want to have something that will last a looong time, get something like a Swarovski ATS65/80 + 25-50x. The ATX series is even more flexible with 65, 85, 95 and 105mm objective modules, but the price is pretty steep, and things start to get heavy above 80-85mm.

A larger scope will be brighter at higher magnifications so it depends on what your needs are.

 

[LucaPCP]

And, why is the Kowa TSN-663M so much cheaper than the TSN-553?
Thanks, I will look at the Swarovski!

 

[Vespobuteo]

And, why is the Kowa TSN-663M so much cheaper than the TSN-553?
Thanks, I will look at the Swarovski!

TSN553 has Fluorite glass.

But I wouldn't recommend any of them, eye pieces are a bit tunnel-like and not wide-angle.

Kowa 773 and 883 are better and have modern wide angle zoom eye pieces. But more expensive.

 

[dwatsonbirder]

TSN553 has Fluorite glass.

But I wouldn't recommend any of them, eye pieces are a bit tunnel-like and not wide-angle.

Kowa 773 and 883 are better and have modern wide angle zoom eye pieces. But more expensive.

There is an excellent 30x for the 663 at least, and also the 30x and new 35/40x WA for the 88/99 series - the OP was interested in a fixed focal length lens anyways.

There are many excellent options at different price brackets - the Opticron MM4 at the more affordable end of the spectrum (but still a competant performer), though the ATS65 is very popular for good reason, but considerably more expensive.

If you are happy to buy used, you will get 99% (or even better) of the performance for less than buying new, the Nikon EDiii, Leica APO62, Zeiss Dialyt 65, Kowa 603 - all top quality, just not the latest and greatest. I've still yet to find a better performing scope than my Nikon ED82!

 

[Vespobuteo]

There is an excellent 30x for the 663 at least, and also the 30x and new 35/40x WA for the 88/99 series - the OP was interested in a fixed focal length lens anyways.

There are many excellent options at different price brackets - the Opticron MM4 at the more affordable end of the spectrum (but still a competant performer), though the ATS65 is very popular for good reason, but considerably more expensive.

If you are happy to buy used, you will get 99% (or even better) of the performance for less than buying new, the Nikon EDiii, Leica APO62, Zeiss Dialyt 65, Kowa 603 - all top quality, just not the latest and greatest. I've still yet to find a better performing scope than my Nikon ED82!

The 30x EP work on the 663, but not on the 553, and op was looking for a 60mm scope.

...and "likely a 30x EP"... But I don't think we should take it that literally.

Modern zooms can be as good as any 30x and the SDL v3 15-45x is pretty good value for money.
Swaro don't even sell fixed EP:s any more.

Wide angle FOV and good eye relief is not always the case for older scopes and EP:s unfortunately.
Not high transmission and good color balance either.

 

[Tringa45]

Hi Luca,

I think you have aptly recognized the constraints imposed by aperture and exit pupil size.
Scopes don't really make much sense below magnifications of 20x and at exit pupils below 2 mm you are beginning to lose brightness and maybe even influencing the acuity of your eye due to diffraction. For many the crossover point for the benefits of increased magnification on terrestrial objects would be reached at about 1,5 mm exit pupil.

Another member here recently bought a 130 mm astronomical scope. He's not going to be using it for birding but terrestrially its useful magnification in still air would range from under 20x to about 85x. Conversely, a 50 mm scope has a useful magnification of about 20-30x, so IMO zoom eyepieces don't make any sense, particularly as many of them on the smaller scopes have a miserable AFoV at the lower magnifications. The 20-60x zoom for the Kowa 663 for instance has a FoV at 20x of a mere 33 m, but the 30x Wide has a FoV of 42 m.

Nevertheless, a 60 or 65 mm scope would widen your horizons enormously and in 90-95% of situations would accomplish what a larger heavier scope could do. For me the step up from a 65 mm scope to an 88 mm scope was somewhat less of a practical advantage than I had expected.

John

 

[Vespobuteo]

Hi Luca,

I think you have aptly recognized the constraints imposed by aperture and exit pupil size.
Scopes don't really make much sense below magnifications of 20x and at exit pupils below 2 mm you are beginning to lose brightness and maybe even influencing the acuity of your eye due to diffraction. For many the crossover point for the benefits of increased magnification on terrestrial objects would be reached at about 1,5 mm exit pupil.

Another member here recently bought a 130 mm astronomical scope. He's not going to be using it for birding but terrestrially its useful magnification in still air would range from under 20x to about 85x. Conversely, a 50 mm scope has a useful magnification of about 20-30x, so IMO zoom eyepieces don't make any sense, particularly as many of them on the smaller scopes have a miserable AFoV at the lower magnifications. The 20-60x zoom for the Kowa 663 for instance has a FoV at 20x of a mere 33 m, but the 30x Wide has a FoV of 42 m.

Nevertheless, a 60 or 65 mm scope would widen your horizons enormously and in 90-95% of situations would accomplish what a larger heavier scope could do. For me the step up from a 65 mm scope to an 88 mm scope was somewhat less of a practical advantage than I had expected.

John

The SDL v3 15-45x should give a FOV of 2.25° at 30x (2.7° – 1.8°) which means an AFOV of 67.5° at 30x (old school formula). (Kowa 663/553 is worse as you mentioned).

The problem with a fixed 30x on a 60mm scope is that it will be dimmer when the light is low. And brightness is so important when it comes to seeing contrast and detail IMO.

I had the Nikon EDIIIA with a 30x for several years, and converting to the ATS65 and 25-50x I saw a clear difference in low light performance, larger EP and better transmission, and also better color rendition/less color bias. The Nikon had a pleasant view but probably too reddish. Nikon zooms where sharp but ER and viewing comfort was not good with glasses, especially.

That said, a used EDIII (or other make) with a fixed EP might be quite good value for money, if you get a good sample, that is. The problem might start though when OP in the future want to upgrade to a zoom eyepiece... due to the limitations discussed above...

 

[William Lewis]

Its always a tricky sell with little to no takers so far but I've used the swaro ctc 30x75 draw tube exclusively for the last few years. I've used a few of the opticrons over the years too, nothing wrong with them.

It's small enough for me when folded, not heavy but not super light, has a 2.5mm exit pupil and decent optics. Also quite a wide fov at 41m at 1000m (the same as the much pricier options). The 75mm aperture helps keep things bright. Works brilliantly in a hide rested on the vertical edges of the windows.

Never see anyone else using one and if I believe what I've read swaro only make a few (1000) a year.

It works for me as I don't like carrying a scope or tripod but do need the reach of a scope quite often so having the CTC and monopod slung in the birding bag works a treat.

I'll move on now to some actual advice rather than banging the left field drum any further, apologies!



If I were getting a first scope id probably go for a used reasonable quality 80+ mm zoom (Nikon ed 82?) with a tripod so you know what they can do and be amazed at the detail levels you can achieve at range.

You can get a good idea of the things you want or need from a scope as well as your likes and dislikes and how it fits in with how you go birding. You can then refine your set up and if you buy used initially not have to worry too much about the cost implications.

It's alway a compromise but if you start with the best type of scope to actually see more at range you'll have a much better idea of where your prepared to make those compromises - and a big scope with a zoom is a truly awesome bit of kit to experience.

 

[Tringa45]

The SDL v3 15-45x should give a FOV of 2.25° at 30x (2.7° – 1.8°) which means an AFOV of 67.5° at 30x (old school formula). (Kowa 663/553 is worse as you mentioned).

The problem with a fixed 30x on a 60mm scope is that it will be dimmer when the light is low. And brightness is so important when it comes to seeing contrast and detail IMO.

I'm very sceptical regarding the above figures. A FoV of 1,8° @ 45x would indicate an AFoV of 81°! That's into Nagler territory and even more than Kowa's new TE-80XW - absolutely unprecedented for a zoom.
Agree on the 2 mm exit pupil, but with an MM4 60 the only fixed magnification eyepieces are 17x, 20x, 23x and 25x. Either of the latter two would be a good compromise for a 60 mm scope.

John

 

[Vespobuteo]

I'm very sceptical regarding the above figures. A FoV of 1,8° @ 45x would indicate an AFoV of 81°! That's into Nagler territory and even more than Kowa's new TE-80XW - absolutely unprecedented for a zoom.
Agree on the 2 mm exit pupil, but with an MM4 60 the only fixed magnification eyepieces are 17x, 20x, 23x and 25x. Either of the latter two would be a good compromise for a 60 mm scope.

John

The classic/old school formula overstates the AFOV, it's not the real AFOV, but a quick way to compare EP:s.

The Kowa TE-9Z 20-60x has a FOV of 1.9-1° so no doubt it's more narrow. The classic formula gives about 58° AFOV as high as 40x. So it's not a WA zoom in my book.

Whereas the Swarovski 25-50x WA zoom (2.4-1.55°) gives an AFOV of 60° already at 25x for example.

The Kowa 30x EP with 2.2° would give a theoretical 66° AFOV, so comparable to the Swaro Zoom.

And the Opticron SDL zoom gives a similar value at 30x.

Eye relief is another factor, fixed EP:s tend to have longer ER and might be more comfortable, but what works can be quite subjective.

 

[Tringa45]

The classic/old school formula overstates the AFOV, it's not the real AFOV, but a quick way to compare EP:s.

At scope magnifications there would not be much difference between the classic formula and the ISO formula (small tangent error), so those figures have got to be wrong for the MM4 60.
Along with the zoom oculars on the Swarovski ATX/STX scopes the Kowa TE-11WZ 25-60x on my 883 is certainly wider than any 3x zoom.
I measured AFoVs from 57° @ 25x to 68° @ 60x.

John

 

[Vespobuteo]

At scope magnifications there would not be much difference between the classic formula and the ISO formula (small tangent error), so those figures have got to be wrong for the MM4 60.
Along with the zoom oculars on the Swarovski ATX/STX scopes the Kowa TE-11WZ 25-60x on my 883 is certainly wider than any 3x zoom.
I measured AFoVs from 57° @ 25x to 68° @ 60x.

John

PS: FoV @ 1000 m and 25x is 41 m for the Swaro and 42 m for the Kowa.

Larger scopes and heavy zooms were not requested by the OP.

I was talking about the a Kowa TE-9Z 20-60x that fits the 663 scope.

And the Opticron SDL zoom is no doubt more Wide Angle than that one.

 

[Tringa45]

This is getting tiresome.
I was merely indicating how impossible the figures were that you quoted for the SDL.

 

[Vespobuteo]

This is getting tiresome.
I was merely indicating how impossible the figures were that you quoted for the SDL.

I was merely indicating that the SDL V3 is more WA than the Kowa TE-9Z 20-60x.

The real FOV for the SDLv3 (2.7-1.8°) is quoted from here:

Opticron SDL v3 zoom eyepiece - 41270 The Birders Store

Opticron SDL v3 zoom eyepiece - 41270

www.birders-store.co.uk

If there's no error using the classic formula, as you suggested, the real FOV (counting backwards from the AFOV spec below) is instead (2.6-1.53°)

It's still bigger than the Kowa zoom.

Model, Mag, AFOV° (FOV °/m) according to spec:

Opticron SDLv3 15-45x: 38.8~69° (2.7-1.8° / 47 - 31 m)

Kowa TE-9Z 20-60x: 38-60° (1.9-1.0° / 33 - 17m)

Hope that helps.

 

[jring]

Hi,

maybe a Nikon Fieldscope ED II or ED III with the 20/30/38x MC wide or 16/24/30x plus 27/40/50x wide EPs from the MC or DS series (for the 60mm body the middle number is the relevant one)? MC series are harder to get but nicer for visual, DS are designed for digiscoping with a rubber eyecup for visual.

All are only available used or NOS in limited numbers, so make sure that you get a body with an EP you want... The FS ED II is also not waterproof, if that is important.

Another option would be the current Nikon Monarch 60ED - that one only offers a single 30x wide fixed EP (and a 16-48x normal and a 24-48x wide zoom).

All those are highly regarded and tend to get fewer lemons than other brands... but in any case, either buy online from a store with a no questions asked return policy or test before you buy...

Joachim, who has taken an artificial star to buy optics...

 

[LucaPCP]

Thank you for all the advice! I am in deep doubts.
What's your opinion on Opticron MM4 60mm vs. Kowa 553 55mm?

And if I were to get a "large" scope, what would be your advice? Kowa 883? Or else?
They also seem to be all sold out...

 

[William Lewis]

Thank you for all the advice! I am in deep doubts.
What's your opinion on Opticron MM4 60mm vs. Kowa 553 55mm?

And if I were to get a "large" scope, what would be your advice? Kowa 883? Or else?
They also seem to be all sold out...

I'm not entirely well versed in the current latest and greatest in large scopes having used the CTC for a while now and not felt any desire to change it but I've read that the Nikon HG 82 is very well thought of and seems to have more consistency between samples than some other makes

 

[Vespobuteo]

Thank you for all the advice! I am in deep doubts.
What's your opinion on Opticron MM4 60mm vs. Kowa 553 55mm?

And if I were to get a "large" scope, what would be your advice? Kowa 883? Or else?
They also seem to be all sold out...

The 553 is a very light travel scope but the small exit pupil will be a compromise, it's overpriced as well IMO.
And you still need to carry a tripod and fluid head in any case.

The 553 also has the TE-9Z zoom permanently mounted, and it can't be removed.
(gives 15-45x, see discussion on that eye piece above)

The ATS 65HD is not that much more expensive but a brighter and better scope.
Aprox. 500g more heavy though.

When it comes to the top scopes it's more about personal preferences.
But I would say Kowa 773/883 or Swarovski ATS/ATX.

Kowa has very low chromatic aberration but Swaro has a more neutral color balance.

Also the focusing mechanism are very different, helical (Swaro) or top-mounted focusing (kowa).
That might affect your choice.

Also the eye pieces are a bit different in ergonomics and one or another might suit you better.

Either way you get an excellent scope. (but be sure to test the scope for sample variation)