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New Zen Ray ZEN ED 2 Spotter in hand (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Steve C
- Start date
Steve C
Well-known member
The Kowa scope I got loan of showed up today, and as a general response to mayoayo's query about the interchangeability of the Kowa and ZEN ED eyepieces. They are significantly different and there is no way they will interchange. I'll put up a couple of pictures later.
I will further note that it will be no easy task to remove the hard rubber backing in the mounting foot of the ZEN ED spotter. I messed around with it a little, and I would not advise trying it. If I find an easy way, I'll post it. The chances look very high something will get dinged up that you did not want dinged up. That rubber insert certainly looks to be intended as a permanent fixture.
I will further note that it will be no easy task to remove the hard rubber backing in the mounting foot of the ZEN ED spotter. I messed around with it a little, and I would not advise trying it. If I find an easy way, I'll post it. The chances look very high something will get dinged up that you did not want dinged up. That rubber insert certainly looks to be intended as a permanent fixture.
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Steve C
Well-known member
Yes, it is an 884 Prominar with Flourite lens and is the straight version. It has the Kowa 20-60 Zoom eyepiece, standard (non Wide angle) unit.
See the pictures below to see the eye piece differences.
Attachments
henry link
Well-known member
It's not that easy to analyze the star test. The optics are certainly misaligned and there are some some other odd things that might be pinching (or prism edges impinging on the light cone) and maybe "zones" on a lens surface. Whatever is going on, the result is a soft image with resolution that is not up to spec. A good sample will give me a better idea about what is inherent in the design.
I should mention once again that scopes are very prone to sample variation, no matter what the brand or price.
Steve C
Well-known member
OK, I suppose I can now post a few comments about the spotter. For a few days now I have had both the newly introduced Zen Ray ZEN ED 2 angled 20-60x, and a Kowa Prominar 884 Fluorite 20-60x straight. The first thing I decided I had to do was get another spotter to serve as a frame of reference. After some checking around, I located a friend with a Kowa and he loaned it to me for this. The Kowa is very lightly used and looks like new
The weather here has been abominable. The lows have been in the -5* to +5* F range and it has not been getting above freezing at all. So the days have been from dull gray all day twilight sort of days to blinding white, hurt your eyes bright, always with a bite clear through you wind.
The Kowa Prominar TSN 884
This is the first of these I have had the opportunity to use. I will say right up front that if this instrument does not suit you, you are likely beyond help. As far as strict resolving ability, bright, flat images with sharp to the edge performance, I have a hard time imagining anything bettering it. I really started trying HARD to find something wrong with this scope after I first looked it over a little. I don’t think I did find a single thing I can even nit pick about at all. There is no apparent curvature, the image is apparently flat, and there is NO distortion at the edge, none. I suppose other alpha level glass will equal it and there are individuals who may prefer some other brand for color bias, eye relief, ergonomic factor, or some other user perceived factor, but the optics are likely as close to state of the art as can be gotten into a spotter as of now.
A quick check of prices shows the body of this spotter available for around $2,500 US. The TE-10Z 20-60 eye piece is about $500 US. There is a wide angle fixed 30x and a 25x LER eyepiece available. So that is obviously a chunk of change and this is certainly an outstanding optical instrument.
This is a little shorter than the ZEN ED, and a little slimmer in body dimension at the location of the focus mechanism, but they bear a lot of physical similarity to each other.
The Zen Ray ZEN ED 2
This is a new scope and has been some time in coming. The current price of this instrument is $1,200 US and comes with the 20-60x eye piece included, so in total is less than half of the price of the Kowa. Zen Ray plans to introduce a 30x Wide angle eyepiece for the ED 2. No information on what it will cost. Bearing a noted similarity to the Kowa, both are likely forced into physical similarities due to the fact that they are both 80mm plus porro prism spotters. The objective of the ZEN ED 2 actually measures 85 mm, but is stopped down to the advertised 82 mm effective aperture.
Comparisons
The removable eye piece assemblies are obviously quite a bit different, the Kowa being about twice the size of the ZEN. Both are bayonet style. The ZEN eyepiece, as noted elsewhere, looks like a dead ringer for the Swarovski, but as noted by Henry Link, Zen Ray also told me they did not advise interchanging them. Personally at this kind of money, I do not plan to be the guinea pig and be the first to ruin something.
I can’t find too much on the Kowa internals, other than the use of a pure fluorite lens in the objective, but I did get some information from Zen Ray about theirs, which I will pass on here. The objective is a triplet, two pieces are cemented and air spaced from the third element. There is s fourth lens near the tripod mount plate. I do not know which two elements of the triplet are cemented, but I do know that two of the elements are ED. The design is not APO. APO should be simpler, but requires a long focal length and would make this scope longer than it is.
I suppose the obvious question foremost in most people’s mind is if the spotter is the optical equivalent of the ZEN ED 2 binoculars. As far as I can see, the answer is yes. The spotter seems built better compared to the Kowa than the ED 2 binoculars compare in build to the alpha brands. The actual quality of the physical construction seems virtually equal to the Kowa, so I don’t think that construction will be a concern. I got the ZEN a day before I did the Kowa and initially it was driving me nuts. There was a smudge dead center in the fov and I was not happy with what I saw. Try as I might I could not see where it was. Then came Henry’s post about sending his back. Then I got the Kowa and I thought, “…well… so much for this comparison”. Then I finally figured out where the smudge was on the ZR. Got that cleaned up properly and my disappointment went away pretty quickly. I think it was all my doing as the smudge was on the first surface of the spotter under the eyepiece. I never did see anything, but after cleaning that surface, the problem was gone. I must have smudged the surface when I either connected or disconnected the eye piece when taking pictures. That smudge was not there the first time I looked at the ZR (at least I don’t think it was as the second time I used it, it was plain as day and I doubt I would have missed the same thing initially).
Now I have admitted I can find nothing to object to or even wish to improve in the Kowa, so how does the ZEN ED really stack up? Very well indeed it would seem. The ZEN has a slight amount (very slight) edge distortion. It does not bend any lines at the edge and will, in and of itself, not force the viewer to automatically center an object on the field edge. But side by side, it is a difference. The ZEN may have an ever so slightly warmer color bias than the Kowa. Not better or worse, just a little different.
You can forget about chromatic aberrations and color fringing in either one of these two instruments. I had ideal conditions for it to show itself and I tried and failed to make it show up. There is a large mountain about 5 miles east of me that soars up in the air over 3,000 feet in less than a mile. With the bright afternoon sun on that snow white face and skyline against a bright blue sky that view will show CA if it is going to show at all. So will Bald Eagles (six around the place over the last few days) or our Black Angus cattle against a snow background in the bright sun.
I have always thought that performance in any spotter started to decline as the exit pupil dipped to less than 2.0 mm. So it is with these much past 40x, although, what there is, is not much. The fall off in both is about the same between 40-50x, and the Kowa is a little better than the ZEN from 50-60x. Up to 40x, there is nothing save the ever so slight edge difference that separates these two scopes. The Kowa shows a little better brightness over 50x than the ZEN. And the distortion on the ZEN increases a bit. Personally, I’d love to get these side by side with a 30x wide angle. Frankly there does not seem a lot of great detail gain above 30-40x, so that might be the sweet spot.
One of my primary stationary evaluation targets was a bright blue cobalt blue sign with white letters. The sign is on the end tower of the neighbors Valley Irrigation Center Pivot. It says “Valley”, below that “where performance counts” and the double Valley Irrigation logo off to the side. The larger letters are 4” tall, the smaller are two inches. The double V logo, one V inside another, is 4” tall, with a one inch wide space between the two V’s. The laser rangefinder called that sign 1,115 yards away.
There are two noticeable operational differences. First, the zoom function of the eyepiece is much easier to operate on the Kowa. Whether or not this was a function of design, the very cold weather stiffening the ZEN more than the Kowa, or maybe the Kowa has been used enough that the movement has eased up, I can’t say for sure, but it was really noticeable. There is much less movement on top of the tripod when zooming magnification with the Kowa. Second is the relative speed of the focus wheel movement. Both are similar in coarse and fine focus wheels and the Kowa has a faster rate of focus than the ZEN, using about half of the movement of the ZEN. It was actually easier to dial fine focus at high magnification, for me anyway, with the ZEN. At least it was after I ditched using a tripod.
Tripod mounts should be given careful consideration. This is self-evident to anybody who uses a spotter much, but can be easily overlooked for use by a less experienced user. I have a compact Bushnell Legend Ultra ED 12-36x50mm spotter and I just used a cheap tripod I had for occasional use for various things, but it is NOT for serious use. It works well enough with the little Bushnell, but boy is it out of its league with a big, heavy, higher magnification scope like the Prominar or ZEN. I wound up applying a “farmer’s fix” to the tripod dilemma. I went to the scrap metal rack and found a 3” wide by ¼” thick piece of steel strap about three feet long. I went into the shop and grabbed a heavy C-clamp and clamped the strap to the top board of the bull corral. This is a 16’ long 3”x12” secured to three 8” square railroad ties with nine 6 inch spikes. I used a window mount adapter clamped the top of the strap, adjusted it to the proper height and clamped it tight. There are three runs of these heavy planks in that fence and this was the single most solid mount I could dream up quickly. But hey, it worked. There is a thumbnail of this setup below. There was plenty I could see from that point, so that was not a problem. The thing to keep in mind is that I think anyone is far better of by spending less money for a still really very good scope like the ZEN and using some of the money saved for a really good, solid tripod. More so than putting all their cash into a top scope and wasting the advantage on a tripod they were forced to skimp on. The surprise of this whole deal for me was how much better the little Bushnell was atop the clamped down strap than it was on top of my silly excuse for a tripod. Lesson duly learned.
Additionally, both of these spotters are very good with handling glare and in controlling stray light. The Kowa is a little better in both regards. Looking toward bright light in the ZEN, I could move my head around and induce some glare. It was possible, but not so much with the Kowa. The Kowa has a four stop eye piece and the Zen three. One stop from all the way out on both was fine for me. Both worked well enough both with and with out sunglasses.
So, to close this up, is the Kowa a better instrument? Sure it is. Not much doubt of that. Are there better spotters than the Kowa? Maybe, but truth be told, I’d have to see it for myself. From my perspective, the ZEN will do anything most people need done with a spotter. The differences, while there are pretty slight and not many will notice without a side by side by side.
The weather here has been abominable. The lows have been in the -5* to +5* F range and it has not been getting above freezing at all. So the days have been from dull gray all day twilight sort of days to blinding white, hurt your eyes bright, always with a bite clear through you wind.
The Kowa Prominar TSN 884
This is the first of these I have had the opportunity to use. I will say right up front that if this instrument does not suit you, you are likely beyond help. As far as strict resolving ability, bright, flat images with sharp to the edge performance, I have a hard time imagining anything bettering it. I really started trying HARD to find something wrong with this scope after I first looked it over a little. I don’t think I did find a single thing I can even nit pick about at all. There is no apparent curvature, the image is apparently flat, and there is NO distortion at the edge, none. I suppose other alpha level glass will equal it and there are individuals who may prefer some other brand for color bias, eye relief, ergonomic factor, or some other user perceived factor, but the optics are likely as close to state of the art as can be gotten into a spotter as of now.
A quick check of prices shows the body of this spotter available for around $2,500 US. The TE-10Z 20-60 eye piece is about $500 US. There is a wide angle fixed 30x and a 25x LER eyepiece available. So that is obviously a chunk of change and this is certainly an outstanding optical instrument.
This is a little shorter than the ZEN ED, and a little slimmer in body dimension at the location of the focus mechanism, but they bear a lot of physical similarity to each other.
The Zen Ray ZEN ED 2
This is a new scope and has been some time in coming. The current price of this instrument is $1,200 US and comes with the 20-60x eye piece included, so in total is less than half of the price of the Kowa. Zen Ray plans to introduce a 30x Wide angle eyepiece for the ED 2. No information on what it will cost. Bearing a noted similarity to the Kowa, both are likely forced into physical similarities due to the fact that they are both 80mm plus porro prism spotters. The objective of the ZEN ED 2 actually measures 85 mm, but is stopped down to the advertised 82 mm effective aperture.
Comparisons
The removable eye piece assemblies are obviously quite a bit different, the Kowa being about twice the size of the ZEN. Both are bayonet style. The ZEN eyepiece, as noted elsewhere, looks like a dead ringer for the Swarovski, but as noted by Henry Link, Zen Ray also told me they did not advise interchanging them. Personally at this kind of money, I do not plan to be the guinea pig and be the first to ruin something.
I can’t find too much on the Kowa internals, other than the use of a pure fluorite lens in the objective, but I did get some information from Zen Ray about theirs, which I will pass on here. The objective is a triplet, two pieces are cemented and air spaced from the third element. There is s fourth lens near the tripod mount plate. I do not know which two elements of the triplet are cemented, but I do know that two of the elements are ED. The design is not APO. APO should be simpler, but requires a long focal length and would make this scope longer than it is.
I suppose the obvious question foremost in most people’s mind is if the spotter is the optical equivalent of the ZEN ED 2 binoculars. As far as I can see, the answer is yes. The spotter seems built better compared to the Kowa than the ED 2 binoculars compare in build to the alpha brands. The actual quality of the physical construction seems virtually equal to the Kowa, so I don’t think that construction will be a concern. I got the ZEN a day before I did the Kowa and initially it was driving me nuts. There was a smudge dead center in the fov and I was not happy with what I saw. Try as I might I could not see where it was. Then came Henry’s post about sending his back. Then I got the Kowa and I thought, “…well… so much for this comparison”. Then I finally figured out where the smudge was on the ZR. Got that cleaned up properly and my disappointment went away pretty quickly. I think it was all my doing as the smudge was on the first surface of the spotter under the eyepiece. I never did see anything, but after cleaning that surface, the problem was gone. I must have smudged the surface when I either connected or disconnected the eye piece when taking pictures. That smudge was not there the first time I looked at the ZR (at least I don’t think it was as the second time I used it, it was plain as day and I doubt I would have missed the same thing initially).
Now I have admitted I can find nothing to object to or even wish to improve in the Kowa, so how does the ZEN ED really stack up? Very well indeed it would seem. The ZEN has a slight amount (very slight) edge distortion. It does not bend any lines at the edge and will, in and of itself, not force the viewer to automatically center an object on the field edge. But side by side, it is a difference. The ZEN may have an ever so slightly warmer color bias than the Kowa. Not better or worse, just a little different.
You can forget about chromatic aberrations and color fringing in either one of these two instruments. I had ideal conditions for it to show itself and I tried and failed to make it show up. There is a large mountain about 5 miles east of me that soars up in the air over 3,000 feet in less than a mile. With the bright afternoon sun on that snow white face and skyline against a bright blue sky that view will show CA if it is going to show at all. So will Bald Eagles (six around the place over the last few days) or our Black Angus cattle against a snow background in the bright sun.
I have always thought that performance in any spotter started to decline as the exit pupil dipped to less than 2.0 mm. So it is with these much past 40x, although, what there is, is not much. The fall off in both is about the same between 40-50x, and the Kowa is a little better than the ZEN from 50-60x. Up to 40x, there is nothing save the ever so slight edge difference that separates these two scopes. The Kowa shows a little better brightness over 50x than the ZEN. And the distortion on the ZEN increases a bit. Personally, I’d love to get these side by side with a 30x wide angle. Frankly there does not seem a lot of great detail gain above 30-40x, so that might be the sweet spot.
One of my primary stationary evaluation targets was a bright blue cobalt blue sign with white letters. The sign is on the end tower of the neighbors Valley Irrigation Center Pivot. It says “Valley”, below that “where performance counts” and the double Valley Irrigation logo off to the side. The larger letters are 4” tall, the smaller are two inches. The double V logo, one V inside another, is 4” tall, with a one inch wide space between the two V’s. The laser rangefinder called that sign 1,115 yards away.
There are two noticeable operational differences. First, the zoom function of the eyepiece is much easier to operate on the Kowa. Whether or not this was a function of design, the very cold weather stiffening the ZEN more than the Kowa, or maybe the Kowa has been used enough that the movement has eased up, I can’t say for sure, but it was really noticeable. There is much less movement on top of the tripod when zooming magnification with the Kowa. Second is the relative speed of the focus wheel movement. Both are similar in coarse and fine focus wheels and the Kowa has a faster rate of focus than the ZEN, using about half of the movement of the ZEN. It was actually easier to dial fine focus at high magnification, for me anyway, with the ZEN. At least it was after I ditched using a tripod.
Tripod mounts should be given careful consideration. This is self-evident to anybody who uses a spotter much, but can be easily overlooked for use by a less experienced user. I have a compact Bushnell Legend Ultra ED 12-36x50mm spotter and I just used a cheap tripod I had for occasional use for various things, but it is NOT for serious use. It works well enough with the little Bushnell, but boy is it out of its league with a big, heavy, higher magnification scope like the Prominar or ZEN. I wound up applying a “farmer’s fix” to the tripod dilemma. I went to the scrap metal rack and found a 3” wide by ¼” thick piece of steel strap about three feet long. I went into the shop and grabbed a heavy C-clamp and clamped the strap to the top board of the bull corral. This is a 16’ long 3”x12” secured to three 8” square railroad ties with nine 6 inch spikes. I used a window mount adapter clamped the top of the strap, adjusted it to the proper height and clamped it tight. There are three runs of these heavy planks in that fence and this was the single most solid mount I could dream up quickly. But hey, it worked. There is a thumbnail of this setup below. There was plenty I could see from that point, so that was not a problem. The thing to keep in mind is that I think anyone is far better of by spending less money for a still really very good scope like the ZEN and using some of the money saved for a really good, solid tripod. More so than putting all their cash into a top scope and wasting the advantage on a tripod they were forced to skimp on. The surprise of this whole deal for me was how much better the little Bushnell was atop the clamped down strap than it was on top of my silly excuse for a tripod. Lesson duly learned.
Additionally, both of these spotters are very good with handling glare and in controlling stray light. The Kowa is a little better in both regards. Looking toward bright light in the ZEN, I could move my head around and induce some glare. It was possible, but not so much with the Kowa. The Kowa has a four stop eye piece and the Zen three. One stop from all the way out on both was fine for me. Both worked well enough both with and with out sunglasses.
So, to close this up, is the Kowa a better instrument? Sure it is. Not much doubt of that. Are there better spotters than the Kowa? Maybe, but truth be told, I’d have to see it for myself. From my perspective, the ZEN will do anything most people need done with a spotter. The differences, while there are pretty slight and not many will notice without a side by side by side.
Attachments
mooreorless
Well-known member
Hi Steve, Thanks for posting this. I like your mount fix.
Did you try rotating the angled scopes?
Did you try rotating the angled scopes?
Steve C
Well-known member
Hi Steve, Thanks for posting this. I like your mount fix.
Yes I did rotate the ZEN on that corral fence mount. The only thing really the matter with that was it was a bit high and it was either rotate the scope or stand on tiptoe, or go find a block to stand on. It was perfect for the straight style of the Prominar.
Rotating the scope makes it somewhat harder to pan any with the scope, or makes it somewhat harder to center your target, but works well enough.
mooreorless
Well-known member
Hi Steve, Thanks for your reply. I forgot to say what a great view you have. Did the black angus like the Zen-Ray?
Steve C
Well-known member
They do tend to get curious, especially as they had never seen this sort of behavior from people. After I was at this for awhile they would all be lined watching trying to figure out what I was up to.
I did not dare leave a scope unattended as one would get curious and sneak up on the setup and investigate. When the first one did everyone else followed suit. Their nose and tounge are their chief tools, not likely conducive to spotting scope longevity.
I did not dare leave a scope unattended as one would get curious and sneak up on the setup and investigate. When the first one did everyone else followed suit. Their nose and tounge are their chief tools, not likely conducive to spotting scope longevity.
Steve C
Well-known member
I have never seen a Nikon ED 50. However, if my past experience with comparative Bushnell vs Nikon is any indication, I'd expect the Nikon to be better.
The Bushnell is decent enough up to 24x or so, but tends to dim pretty quickly if the conditions are overcast, twilight etc. It actually compared pretty decently centerfield to the Kowa and ZEN at 20x, but was left behind pretty quickly. The Bushnell is fine if you need compact and if you don't need to get much above 20-25x. Despite the ED glass, I could get some fringing where I could not with the bigger scopes.
Martin Fagg
Guest
Very nice review Steve. Thank you very much.
Do you know if ZR plan on making any other fixed mag e/ps other than 30x. I prefer them to zooms and like a set of three, one of each around 20x, 28x and 35x say.
Perhaps they'll make an astro adaptor even.
Thanks again
Martin
Do you know if ZR plan on making any other fixed mag e/ps other than 30x. I prefer them to zooms and like a set of three, one of each around 20x, 28x and 35x say.
Perhaps they'll make an astro adaptor even.
Thanks again
Martin
Rui_Caratão
Well-known member
Nice review, we were all eager to know an opinion .
I am glad it stood up to the Kowa, probably the most serious alpha competitor....but it would be also nice to known how much better de Zen is, than the Regal 80 F-ED, probably the most serious of the cheapest contenders.
I am glad it stood up to the Kowa, probably the most serious alpha competitor....but it would be also nice to known how much better de Zen is, than the Regal 80 F-ED, probably the most serious of the cheapest contenders.
Great review Steve. It appears that, like their binos, Zen has a winner here too. I do own the Kowa 884 Prominar, and I'm amazed every time I look through it. I had it side by side with the neighbor's Zeiss FL T 85, my Nikon 82ED, and a Swaro 80HD. Not only was the Kowa an alpha "competitor", it is THE alpha IMO. Charles at Zen Ray seems like a good guy. Glad to see his spotter did so well. Thanks.
NDhunter
Experienced observer
Steve:
Nice review, it seems you have been able to have fun with 2 great scopes.
I like your pic, wonderful view, and your scope mount is a good farmer fix.
Not too many farmers here, but sometimes we know how to "get er done".
Are you able to keep these around so you can also compare with the Theron scope you
mentioned?
Jerry
Nice review, it seems you have been able to have fun with 2 great scopes.
I like your pic, wonderful view, and your scope mount is a good farmer fix.
Not too many farmers here, but sometimes we know how to "get er done".
Are you able to keep these around so you can also compare with the Theron scope you
mentioned?
Jerry
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Steve C
Well-known member
Yeah I will. The Theron MAG 82 got here today in fact. I have just used it for a few minutes, but it makes a first impression nearly equal to the Kowa. Triplet ED objective, same size and basic porro profile profile as the ZEN and Kowa. Different focus mechanism. This one is a single range focus with a moveable ring around the circumference of the body just at the mounting plate. Both 25-75x and 30x WA threaded eyepieces included. I'll have to find another C-clamp
.
Steve C
Well-known member
Yeah that Kowa, I will agree, is my nominee for the "top dog on the spotting scope porch" award.
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