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Norfolk birding (9 Viewers)

Titchwell November 4th

Today's highlights

Snow bunting - 2 on beach
Jack snipe - 1 on grazing meadow pool
Water pipit - 1st of the winter on the grazing meadow pool this morning
Short eared owl - 1 hunting grazing meadow all day
Yellow legged gull - adult on fresh marsh
Pintail - 110 on fresh marsh

Paul
 
Graham

I've seen 'wing-barred' common crossbill before but I suspect your bird is a two-barred. Though narrow the G. covert bar has the correct shape (broad on the inner & tapering towards the outer wing), and the width of this in TBC is highly variable. Crossbills have an extended breeding season and can be at very different stages making for a complex moult strategy . A 1st winter male could be completely red and have reduced (heavily worn) juvenile coverts creating bars as narrow as in your bird. I seem to remember the Cley bird earlier in the Autumn looked rather similar (at least in the photos I saw). Now I may be proved wrong and someone is bound to produce a photo of common crossbill with a nice tapering crescent of a wing-bar but my gut feeling is with TBC based on your images (also the dark-cented scaps look good IMO).

cheers
James H

James, I agree with you. The extent of white on tertials is surely far too much for a white winged C Crossbill. The G covert bar does seem narrow but as you say must be in range for TB Crossbill?

Graham, good of you to question the ID as it is not the most obvious of birds.

I too will probably be proved wrong now but think this looks good for Two-barred.

Has anyone heard it call? That would help

Sacha
 
Agree with Kieran that the bird is a Common Crossbill for all the reasons outlined above. Another confusion species which extends to Skua Sp and Swift Sp. Very interesting bird which no doubt I have made the wrong call;)
 
James, I agree with you. The extent of white on tertials is surely far too much for a white winged C Crossbill. The G covert bar does seem narrow but as you say must be in range for TB Crossbill?

Graham, good of you to question the ID as it is not the most obvious of birds.

I too will probably be proved wrong now but think this looks good for Two-barred.

Has anyone heard it call? That would help

Sacha

Hi Sacha

Unfortunately I didn't hear it call, that certainly would have helped.
I was discussing the ID of this bird yesterday outside of this forum and one thing pointed out was, that at this time of the year, you would be expect the bird to be reasonably fresh. If so, then you might expect the wing-bars to be broader and the tertials more noticeably white tipped (in the case of TB Crossbill). In worn plumage (say in mid-summer), the wing-bars may be narrower and the tertials tips fringed white only. Looking at my own photos, the bird does look reasonably fresh, so on that basis I'm still leaning towards Common Crossbill.

Cheers

Graham

http://grahamsphoto.blogspot.co.uk/
 
Hi Graham
If this is a wing-barred Common then it is the most look-alike I have ever seen photos of!
The extent of the white tertial tips, the pinkish tone to plumage, the white wingbars all seem good for Two-barred to me..... However, I do see your points and the wing bars are fairly narrow rather than fat and broad!
Now , I am confused.
I saw a few slightly wing barred Commons this Autumn but they were clearly nothing more than just that....
This bird is extreme
(PS I'm still in the Two barred camp.. But only just)
 
Lynford 2BXBill

Agree with Kieran that the bird is a Common Crossbill for all the reasons outlined above. Another confusion species which extends to Skua Sp and Swift Sp. Very interesting bird which no doubt I have made the wrong call;)

Correct! This bird is a standard 1w-male 2BXBill. The tertial pattern, and both the extent and shape of the wing-bars clearly indicate a bird in advanced body moult with retained juvenile wing feathers. The extent, shape and colouration of wingbars in L. curvirostra are extremely unlikely to ever match that shown by this example of L. leucoptera (as stated earlier by James Hanlon). See Svensson: Identification Guide to European Passerines, p. 303.
 
Correct! This bird is a standard 1w-male 2BXBill. The tertial pattern, and both the extent and shape of the wing-bars clearly indicate a bird in advanced body moult with retained juvenile wing feathers. The extent, shape and colouration of wingbars in L. curvirostra are extremely unlikely to ever match that shown by this example of L. leucoptera (as stated earlier by James Hanlon). See Svensson: Identification Guide to European Passerines, p. 303.

I think you have raised a very important point. You don't have to search far to find a few birds which show similarly worn greater and lesser covert bars. The Cley bird, for example, (which was a 1st summer) showed equally worn retained wing feathers and the greater coverts bar in-particular differs little, if at all from the male currently being discussed at Lynford. So, there is no doubt that this is within range and saying so I must backtrack slightly on what I have said previously about this being far to subtle to be considered in the range of Two-barred Crossbill. I simple wasn't well read enough on the subject.

Taking all that into consideration, the topic which becomes more important now is the one discussing the degree in which Common Crossbill can 'mimic' Two-barred. Perhaps poor views of of the Cley bird high in a tree and heavily cropped images would have raised the question is it, or isn't it? Luckily the bird was down to feet and world class views and huge images were retained of the bird, showing all the right structural criteria and thus no questions were raised. Brilliant.

An image of a female Common Crossbill with obvious, seemingly white more than off-white wing bars can be seen (here). From head an bill structure, the bird in quite clearly a Common, although I am sure on the first moments of sighting such a bird the alarm bells of Two-barred must have been ringing. Maybe a flip scenario of what we have with the Lynford bird. So where is the middle ground? Structure and call. As the bird wasn't heard to call, structure is all we have to go on and a couple of blurry images of this bird are nothing like what is needed to judge it safely. Although, from the images we have the bird does seem big headed and big billed. Something we obviously don't want to see when looking at a Two-barred.

I have moved from Common Crossbill to the fence. I don't think we have enough documentation about aberrant Commons. Or at least I have seen none. But, I have spoken to more than one person who has said they have seen Common Crossbill showing this extent of wing-bar and this clean. Maybe they were Two-bars, who knows; but I think this bird either needs photographing better or more extensive field notes documenting structure and call to be 100% sure of it's correct identification.

Sorry for the rambling, it might all sound like a load of stallion stool, but I find the whole thing quite interesting and believe it should be explored much further before such comments are made pronouncing this bird a 100%, standard Two-barred Crossbill. If nothing comes from it, some of us may have learnt something at least.
 
Titchwell November 6th

Today's highlights

Crossbill - 3 west over carpark this morning
Twite - 8 on beach
Snow bunting - 12 on beach but mobile
Slavonian grebe - 2 offshore
Red necked grebe - 1 offshore
Whooper swan - 2 adults on fresh marsh
Goosander - 2 on fresh marsh
Pom skua - 1 offshore
Short eared owl - 1 on grazing meadow all day
Pintail - 70 on fresh marsh

Paul
 
Crossbill wingbars

...You don't have to search far to find a few birds which show similarly worn greater and lesser covert bars. The Cley bird, for example, (which was a 1st summer) showed equally worn retained wing feathers and the greater coverts bar in-particular differs little, if at all from the male currently being discussed at Lynford...

... the degree in which Common Crossbill can 'mimic' Two-barred...

An image of a female Common Crossbill with obvious, seemingly white more than off-white wing bars can be seen ... From head an bill structure, the bird in quite clearly a Common, although I am sure on the first moments of sighting such a bird the alarm bells of Two-barred must have been ringing...

... I have spoken to more than one person who has said they have seen Common Crossbill showing this extent of wing-bar and this clean. Maybe they were Two-bars, who knows ...

Keiran - 1w 2BXbills with retained juv wing feathers are admittedly not so obvious as adults, but when seen well or photographed they should not pose too many problems. May I recommend that you study closely two things on the image of the fem Common Xbill you posted the link too, and on the images of the 2BXbill under discussion: (i) the relationship in both shape and position of the median and greater covert wingbars; and (ii) the exact extent and shape of the white on the tertials. This is where the important features are to be found and I think you will see the differences. Hope this helps
 
Re crossbills

There was an ID forum in Birding World in 1991 (Harrap & Millington, Vol 4, No. 2, pp 55-59)

Few pics and illustration of wing-barred Common Crossbill.

Dawn
 

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