Raptor survey as a work, what kind of bins? (1 Viewer)

[[email protected]]

I have my doubts about that statement. If you couldn't even spot them with an 8x you almost certainly can't ID them with 12x, IS or no IS. The difference between 8x and 12x is not big enough. Unless you ID them just by flight pattern. But even with IS you will not see much details when they are really that far away that you cannot see them AT ALL in an 8x bino.
Just testing this as there are a lot of birds in the sky currently here and the ones that are that far away that I can barely see them with an 8x are not really much bigger with a 12x. That wouldn't change with IS. Maybe if I get out my 18x50IS the difference in magnification would be big enough.
I like IS as much as the next guy but it really isn't the "silver bullet" that some people think it is.

The difference between a normal 8x binocular and a 12x IS binocular like the Canon 12x36 IS III binocular is huge. Even when you compare a traditional 8x binocular to an 8x IS the binocular the IS binocular will resolve almost 40 % more detail and when you move up in magnification from an 8x to 12x the difference in resolution and the detail you can see is multiplied. It is a fact that handheld a $500 Canon 8x20 IS will kill a $3000 Swarovski NL 8x42 in resolving detail. The Canon 12x36 IS III is almost like having a portable spotting scope compared to a regular binocular. The IS binoculars are especially good when you are trying to spot something moving at a great distance, like a a raptor or aircraft.

Canon 10x42 IS L Tripod vs hand-held vs IS testing

That was the "probable cause", subsequent testing using the Roddier method found somewhat more error than predicted. This method uses a star test based on the fact that known defocus intra and extra focus should be exactly the same. The light is measured and Zernike polynominals are generated...

www.birdforum.net

 

[Binocollector]

@[email protected]
I know the difference between IS and non IS. You still cannot identify a bird that you cannot see with a 8x bino at all when looking through a 12x - even if it has IS. That's just plain nonsense and I doubt you even ever made that comparison. If you cannot see a bird with an 8x it will still only be a tiny speck in a 12x.

 

[dwatsonbirder]

There seems to be some misunderstanding here - so far the professionals who undertake these surveys (in some instances on a daily basis) have recommended a low power, wide angle binocular, whilst others (presumably with no background in conducting professional surveys) have diverged and are talking of high power binoculars for identifying birds at great range.

Most VP surveys are undertaken at a maximum distance of 2km, so there is no need for high powered kit (otherwise you have a telescope) as the core data you are collecting is flight altitude, duration and direction - the ability to use two or three stop watches at once and accurately assess altitude is the greater challenge, as the assumption will be that you have sufficient experience to confidently identify likely species quickly.

Hope this helps @Royfinn !

 

[Torchepot]

Spent a couple of seasons counting raptors on migration - which is a bit different - but I did learn a lot. It’s really important to have a pair of bins that are super comfortable to look through for hours, and I think a wide field of view really helps. If you’re using a finnstick then maybe 8x50 or possibly 10x50 would be good options - but unfortunately there’s not a huge choice of decent options in that format. If I were doing it again I would certainly avoid anything with a narrow field of view

 

[Binocollector]

Too bad they don't make those super wide angle 10x50s with 8° FoV anymore. I managed to find an old Swift with those specs on ebay but it was in horrible condition.

 

[Torchepot]

My first bins were W/A Swift 10x50 - not built to last but what a view! Like looking through a picture window.

 

[dwatsonbirder]

How did you use a scope on problematic birds? They would have to be on a nest or sitting in a tree. I can't see how you would follow them in flight.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

Alternatively, if you struggle getting birds in view in flight, the cable tie method is a good option.

 

[Foss]

Seems like a 10x50 might tick a lot of boxes.

 

[Belumat]

I too collaborate on a raptor census every year. And to count them you first have to find them by scanning the sky for many hours. For me, fov and ergonomics are fundamental. A good 8 x 32 or 8 x 42 I think are perfect. I also have a 10 x 42 but I don't find it very useful.

 

[Alaska4me]

A good 8 x 32 or 8 x 42 I think are perfect. I also have a 10 x 42 but I don't find it very useful.

I second that motion

 

[[email protected]]

@[email protected]
I know the difference between IS and non IS. You still cannot identify a bird that you cannot see with a 8x bino at all when looking through a 12x - even if it has IS. That's just plain nonsense and I doubt you even ever made that comparison. If you cannot see a bird with an 8x it will still only be a tiny speck in a 12x.

From Birdwatching.com. Canon Stabilizer Binocular- Review by Michael and Diane Porter 2009

"How much better can you see with a 15x Canon IS? We did a quick, hand-held test. We posted a dollar bill on one wall of a long room and compared Washington's portrait through Canon IS binoculars and the Zeiss Victory FL 10x42. With the 10-power Zeiss, we could read the word WASHINGTON very clearly below the portrait at a distance of 13.5 feet. With the Canon Image Stabilizer 15x50, we could back up to 23 feet and still read it. So the 15-power Canon let us see details at almost double the distance. A duck on a lake would be identifiable twice as far away. Pretty nice."

 

[Royfinn]

Thanks for the suggestions! Here is summary so far..

• Wide field is important
• Low chromatic aberration is needed
• Ease of view is important
• Typical good quality 8x42 (or 8x32) might do the trick said several posters, some of who have participated in surveys
• Many people involved in surveys use 10x bins
• 10x or 12x was suggested by few posters, maybe 10x50
• 50mm lens might bring more light and ease of view
• 2 suggestions for longer range IS bins to make ID further away

 

[Thotmosis]

If you are talking about conducting standard VP surveys, then a binocular with a wide field of view to enable accurate recording in height bands is best, my Zeiss 7x42 are perfect for this, though admittedly there are a limited suite of species on most sites I work on - a telescope can always be used to confirm ID if needed.

What about a 7x and a 12x or even 15x, aside from weight and bulk issues of course?

 

[dwatsonbirder]

What about a 7x and a 12x or even 15x, aside from weight and bulk issues of course?

A scope is more practical - set it up on a tripod and it is ready to go when needed, also much higher magnification if needed, a fixed 30x or zoom is generally fine.
One bit of kit that I've not seen used commercially is a finnstick, I've always fancied giving one a go...

 

[Thotmosis]

I have a scope, a Zeiss 18-45x65 Fieldscope but for birding it doesn’t do the trick for me. Maybe i have to get myself one of this Swarovski scopes with the “bino eyepiece”.

The finnstick would be also handy for agressive wild dogs on Crete

 

[Royfinn]

One bit of kit that I've not seen used commercially is a finnstick, I've always fancied giving one a go...

Here in Finland every serious birder has finnstick and if you come to see raptors without it, you might get laughed off... I made mine of broomstick and I have teached same method to some less experianced fellow birders and to an exchange student from Austria and they all said that it's great improvement.

 

[Thotmosis]

Here in Finland every serious birder has finnstick and if you come to see raptors without it, you might get laughed off... I made mine of broomstick and I have teached same method to some less experianced fellow birders and to an exchange student from Austria and they all said that it's great improvement.

Thanks! Looks very handy, especially for heavier binoculars.

 

[Binocollector]

@[email protected]
You can quote this unrelated stuff about IS binos all day long. It still doesn't change the fact that I don't believe your statement that you can ID a bird with a 12x36IS that you cannot even see with a normal 8x bino!
So as long as nobody else steps forward and says, "yes, Dennis is absolutely right, I did the comparison", it will not change anything.
And for the record: I own an 18x50IS so I know most of the unrelated stuff you posted that does nothing to solve this particular question.

 

[edwincjones]

The difference between a normal 8x binocular and a 12x IS binocular like the Canon 12x36 IS III binocular is huge. Even when you compare a traditional 8x binocular to an 8x IS the binocular the IS binocular will resolve almost 40 % more detail and when you move up in magnification from an 8x to 12x the difference in resolution and the detail you can see is multiplied. It is a fact that handheld a $500 Canon 8x20 IS will kill a $3000 Swarovski NL 8x42 in resolving detail. The Canon 12x36 IS III is almost like having a portable spotting scope compared to a regular binocular. The IS binoculars are especially good when you are trying to spot something moving at a great distance, like a a raptor or aircraft.

Canon 10x42 IS L Tripod vs hand-held vs IS testing

That was the "probable cause", subsequent testing using the Roddier method found somewhat more error than predicted. This method uses a star test based on the fact that known defocus intra and extra focus should be exactly the same. The light is measured and Zernike polynominals are generated...

www.birdforum.net

Even better I would suggest my Fujinon 14x40 TS-X.
It may get heavy for 8 hours but a chest harness, and extra batteries, will help.
FOV is a negative
I am surprised that no-one has suggested the wider FOV Canon 10x42

edj

 

[kabsetz]

I'll take the bait and recommend the 10x42 L IS. It has a pretty decent 6.5 degree field of view, excellent image quality, good stabilisation, and since it has a 1/4" tripod thread on the bottom of the body, it attaches directly to a finnstick without needing a support plate or a tripod attachment gizmo, which almost equalises the weight difference between it and most of the other alphas.

A fully charged pair of Eneloop X batteries will easily last a full day of raptor watching, probably several, and Lithiums even longer. I have only had my batteries run out in situations where it has been at least a couple of weeks since I last charged the pair.

For raptor watching, I don't think aperture bigger than 42mm is necessary since they pretty much fly only during daylight hours. In a 10x, IS is very useful for quickly picking up distant raptors, but if the main criterion is finding as many as possible, then a wide-field 8x such as the 8x42 NL might be the best choice.