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Redpoll 2 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DOC REED
- Start date
Birdspotter
Well-known member
Going for a meally redpoll on this one too
) - utc's not showing so Mealy for now.
wolfbirder
Well-known member
As has been pointed out to me on Yorks thread, the extent of pink lower down and on face apparently rules out Arctic. So it probably is mealy, but for Coues I like the mantle colour, subtle flank streaking, feathered tarsi, and I think the bill is acceptable for Coues.
From what we can see another borderline bird, but an interesting subject, as with bird One.
From what we can see another borderline bird, but an interesting subject, as with bird One.
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I'd agree with the consensus of Mealy. A very pale bird; we saw one or two 'frosty' birds last winter during a good turnover on the farnes, but none so uniform as this. However, as Wolfbirder says, the shade of red seems to be a good pointer for ID (any links to info on this feature? I've never read about it, but a search of google images reveals no Arctic Redpolls with as deep a shade of red to the breast, but lots of Mealies) I'm pretty sure I can see one, and possibly two, decent sized UTC's on this bird also.
wolfbirder
Well-known member
Regards the red I actually thought the pink colour was ok for Coues. Sorry my post was not clear. But it was pointed out to me previously that the fact the reddish colour extended to the lower underparts and to the face was a feature that ruled out Arctic. I cannot find literature about this but looking at many photos it seems to hold substance.
Difficult to judge the 'redness' of the bird, with the colour being a bit sparse and patchy; probably a 1st winter male aquiring it first breeding colours? However, if extent of colour is something to consider, this bird definitely has it down the flanks, reaching some pretty thick streaks at the rear.
Svensson also says "Ad. male with much pink-red on rump, breast and flanks can have reduced streaking on these parts" A lack of streaking in some pics of these birds can have me a bit miffed, but appears to be normal for male flammea. Explains the lack of upper flank streaking in this bird.
Jason
Svensson also says "Ad. male with much pink-red on rump, breast and flanks can have reduced streaking on these parts" A lack of streaking in some pics of these birds can have me a bit miffed, but appears to be normal for male flammea. Explains the lack of upper flank streaking in this bird.
Jason
buzzard12
Well-known member
A classic adult male flammea Mealy here. Wine throat and breast, streaking on flanks and mantle and scapular tone are all as one would expect. The slight smudge on the wingbar is a strong indication of flammea, exiples show a uniform, snow white wingbar. Arctic exiples is a very pale bird, with litle or no flank steaking ans a light rosy pink flush on the breast...
Even sub adult males have little or no flank steaking, link here to such a bird...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alandalton/3341612849/in/set-72157615034965854/
Hope this helps. Keep looking, as long as Mealies are around there is a good chance of an Arctic among them...
Even sub adult males have little or no flank steaking, link here to such a bird...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alandalton/3341612849/in/set-72157615034965854/
Hope this helps. Keep looking, as long as Mealies are around there is a good chance of an Arctic among them...
wolfbirder
Well-known member
Hi Buzzard12, you are proably right it is mealy. But I don't think that Coues are as straightforward regards mantle colour/wingbar/flank streaking as you say mate, thats just my view. Certainly I think the Arctic you highlight is not Coues is it? The Coues we have been getting this year in the uk have flank streaking and some have darker mantles.
DOC REED
Well-known member
I originally posted this bird as it was so white. Can Mealy be as white as this??Consensus on here would say yes, and I would love it to be arctic, but didn't get rump view.
Redpoll 1 is being underestimated. In the field it had UTC ..very clean.My learning curve with these birds is trackable this winter...started trying to get mealy from lesser...but I have learnt a lot..thanks to all the comments on previous posts.
I think i'm now at Mealy vs arctic.
This bird was very pale, there were lots of mealys around(sorry,back to bird 2 now)...and it was strikingly white/grey and different to rest of mealys.Maybe just variation..but...??
I don't know is my best response...will keep trying...getting all the views necessary as a single observer is a 'mare.
Been on lots of blogs where arctic called by single observers, which seems different to the response in yorkshire.
I'm not questioning anyone..and i'm not claiming these as arctic....Wondering if any could be..and if not, why not.
Fab response..but each time I read pro vs against...i feel no further on.I'm back at the site tomorrow....heres hoping I nail a beauty!!
Paul
wolfbirder
Well-known member
Hi Paul
You may be a bit tired of me responding and taking it no further forward, but I think that is the position. Following reading Martin Garner's excellent Birding blog regards Coues Arctic's netted, and also his excellent detailed summary of a similar very pale bird at Marsh Lane a few years back (you can find the thread on here by searching), I am just not so readily prepared to accept the easy at times 'mealy' option here in the uk. It fascinates me that what is often called arctic in finland would be called mealy here, apparently at times based on which species would be most readily expected.
I know that sounds a bit simple, and it probably is, but there is definately an overlap or even a contradiction of identification features used to clarify the two clines in different countries. Sibley in the USA said mantle colour was the defining feature, but based on that your bird would likely be Arctic. UTC streaks are very subjective, Arctic should show just a single pencil thin streak at most, though sometimes these are hidden anyway by puffed out feathering. Same situation with the rump, though some 1stW Coues have more streaking here than is often suspected & some mealies have larger white rumps than expected. Sometimes a large obvious clean white rump is obvious and pro-Coues, but not always. Some say classic Mealies have two white stripes down the mantle whereas Coues should really have more of a whitish general area, but again I have seen birds that totally contradict this. Feathered Tarsi is said to be classic Coues, but some mealies have this. Flank streaking is entirely varibale, youcan only say 'most' mealies show thicker darker streaking, but as males come into breeding plumage it disappears more or less, but the amount of pink/red if extended down the underparts is a good mealy feature. Head shape (steep smacked against a wall appearance with small beedy eye) and small bill is a good determiner for Coues at times, but again research has shown the bill size difference is only about 10% on average. Bristles petruding at the top of the bill is a good pro-Coues feature but this is hard to tell. Both Coues and Mealy show bright frosty white wingbars of variable width.
If your bird had less extended pink I would be very confused.
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buzzard12
Well-known member
Coues's, or Exsillipes Arctic Redpoll are often far from straightforward, particularily in first winter, which I believe account for most of the birds seen in the uk this winter to date. The bird I highlighted is a first winter Coues's, the bird photographed here in Sweden. First winter birds of both sexes display flank streaking and darker upperparts. Adult birds of both sexes appear more pallid still, adult females with reduced and occasionally no flank streaking, particularily older birds. Adult males are palest and usually clean white on the flanks, with a clean rosy pink flushed breast...
Here is a link to a bird from my blog from a couple of winters ago in Stockholm, thought to have been a second winter male...in addition to my photos there is a link to some good video footage of the bird at the bottom of the post..
http://blogbirder.blogspot.com/2010/01/arctic-redpoll-barkarby-4th-january.html
Another bird from last month, perhaps adult female or a sub adult male, a pale bird..
http://blogbirder.blogspot.com/2011/01/coues-arctic-redpoll-barnangen-17th.html
For comparison, some older digiscoped images of Mealy Redpoll, first winters and adult males...
http://blogbirder.blogspot.com/2007/01/mealy-redpolls-landsort-8th-january.html
Recent shots of Meally Redpoll, 1st Winters, Better quality images..
http://blogbirder.blogspot.com/2010/10/common-redpolls-norra-jarvafaltet-26th.html
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wolfbirder
Well-known member
Excellent stuff and some great links and images, certainly I can see that the pink on the face of the subject bird would appear to indeed clarify i/d. I just wonder if the subject bird would look even paler/ fluffed up if photographed in cold snowy conditions? The bill is certainly no greater than that of the bird you photographed so well with Twite.
I might be teaching Granny to suck eggs here Wolfbirder so apologies if I am but Arctic Redpoll has to be id'd on a suite of features with more weight on some than others. All the features can be found on some Mealies but a Mealy wouldn't show more than one or two features.
So this current bird has a nice pale back and plain ear coverts which are pro Arctic. I think we might be into semantics with the underpart colouring. I describe it as pink with red coming through on the throat and upper breast, I believe you are just describing it as pink. The accurate description of this is important as Arctic would not show red. This is why I think the bird is a non starter as an Arctic.
The other bird Paul put up Redpoll 1 however is a very different proposition. This bird arguably has much more going for it as an Arctic it's just that the pics don't quite show enough to convince a records committee (my opinion as I can't speak for the other members of the YNU panel).
G
wolfbirder
Well-known member
Not a problem at all Gary - I appreciate you trying to improve my knowledge.
I think the 'red' colouration is a factor i do/did not fully understand, simply because I have not seen any male Arctic's in this state of plumage. It does seem to me that Arctic's show salmon pink as opposed to red-pink.
I fully acknowledge that a full range of features has to be considered each time, but the fact this is not possible always makes i/d even more trickier and challenging, and not always possible.
But the fact remains that people who are better experienced are still contradicting each other regards Bird 1 and 2 which to a degree emphasises my stance- some are saying Bird 1 is a definite mealy whilst I agree with you, it has borderline features so cannot safely be assigned.
My continual comment on redpolls is probably tiresome for many, but i am just making the most of the Coues influx this year, it is the first such year for me and I enjoy commenting on every bird put up for discussion.
