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Rolling Ball: what do I do?! (1 Viewer)

Gijs,

I wouldn't pretend there aren't limitations to what I can achieve in back yard testing. I was simply pointing out that for me at least it appears that the diminishing advantage of higher magnification can be ameliorated to some extent by weight and balance. Something that appears to be overlooked in that Vukobratovich paper at least. I do have a little appreciation of the shortcomings of home printed paper charts and daylight levels on results, but I try to achieve a certain level of standardisation and, for my level of interest at least, it seems to work quite well. Enough to figure out some performance difference between my pairs and understand aspects of why other pairs I try are more satisfactory for me than others.

David
 
CJ, spot on! Gathered you could "see" things, but how did you know this? Only, that's in regard to intention. Also, a few problems: (1) Optics den. Funding (for structure and contents) - how to set about it - try Goethe-Institut? (2) Printout. Thought of switching Pompadour before Holger - going too far? Anyway, offended no-one has asked me when my book will be out - so, no discount for BF people.
 
Anyway, offended no-one has asked me when my book will be out - so, no discount for BF people.
But then you'd have to deal with being asked which language it is written in (touches side of nose with finger).

Mathematical formulae, equations and various graphic representations are all very well but as we all know on this forum the real currency for exchange of ideas is the animated emoticon. That is why we are all looking to Chosun Juan for the next big breakthrough in communicating optical concepts in a new internationally intelligible format.
 
Yes, Ron, but that would be a day or two - per each week, for 3-4 months. My English is good enough to write up a scientific article with lots of math in it, but a textbook is another caliber - here, expressions have to be firm and accurate, it is better done by a native English speaker.

@Brock: There will be some math, but just to complement the text and to make some facts quantitative. The math can be skipped without missing the key points, since everything is discussed and analyzed verbally, and much is plotted in graphics (there are 130 graphics/pictures).

I am quite sure that there will be an English version sooner or later, but this may take a little time ...

Cheers,
Holger

Holger,

That's very good to hear about the "complimentary math". That approach gives both lay readers and more technically minded readers ways to "plug in".

I've read astronomy books that were structured this way. They discuss the concepts in the text, and then have a box with mathematical expressions for those who want to delve deeper.

I've been a professional writer for 20 years, I'm sure I could polish your translation. Let Harri Deutsch know I'm for hire. Ich habe auch drei Jahre Deutsch, das könnte helfen. The truth is, your English is better than that of some Americans I know so it wouldn't take much tweaking.

If you retained the foreign publishing rights, you could publish your own e-book for little cost and sell it through amazon.

Brock
 
Gijs,

In your post #240 when you respond to David (typo), you seem to think that David was talking about supporting his binoculars on a bag. What he says he was doing is hand-holding the binoculars, but with added weight placed on top of them to stabilize the view. This is quite different from comparing supported to non-supported.

I have had experiences similar to David's when testing 10x binoculars hand-held. My long-time reference binocular (because I own it and because its optical quality is high enough) has been a Nikon 10x42 SE. Tripod-mounted, it resolves as well as or better than any 10x I have tested, but for me, hand-held, it is not as good as some slightly heavier 10x42 roof prism binoculars or my other 10x reference, the Canon 10x42 IS L used unstabilized. I simply cannot hold the rather lightweight, short and wide Nikon porro as steadily as the longer and narrower roofs or the heavy but very well balanced Canon, and this difference is apparent when resolution-testing or testing speed and accuracy of reading small text or numbers.

On the same topic, somewhat off a tangent and far from the original topic of this thread, in my tests the effectiveness of image stabilization in the 15x50 and 10x42 Canons brings their performance very close to their performance tripod-mounted. Hand-held IS binoculars thus are and exception to the 1,1-1,4 image degradation factor in hand-held viewing. There is some degradation with IS, but the factor is much lower. This is why I use Canons.

Kimmo
 
Kimmo,
I think that your measurements are in line with the results of the Russian scientists I have quoted in earlier posts, since Image Stabilization can be expected to have the same or quite similar results as supported binoculars, since image stabilization kills the effects of hand trembling.
What I did not mention in my quotes is that the scientits also mention that at higher magnifications like 10x, observers can have a short time of optimum image stability and then trembling starts to blur the image.
The articles are really worthwile reading. They also published a paper on image stabilization.
Gijs
 
NJ, just when we're discussing a stable view for quiet, dignified people you praise CJ and those pests jumping about all over the screen. I fear the next step is rhymed poetry using only those things. Brock and I are considering a public nuisance suit. |:mad:| |^| |:x| |=)|
 
Ed (posts 217 and 234), David (post 229),
The original Russian articles by Osipova and Potikhonova about handheld and supported binoculars are printed in English. The authors have done their reserach very well as far as I can judge. Different observers, different kinds of test patterns also taking into account the effect of contrast on resolution (often ignored in the binocuar user society, perhaps because it is not an easy accessibble subject).
They conclude: when viewing distant objects in telescopic instruments,the efficiency of the visual perception decreases drastically because of hand tremor.The resolution limit of the "observer-instrument"system is degraded by a factor of 1,1 - 1,4. The probability of recognizing equal-size images of objects is reduced, and the recognition time increases approximately proportionally to the increase in magnification".
Vukabratovitch and Yoder publish in their book on page 53 a graph, that looks similar to the plot of data collected by the Russian scientists.
Gijs

Hi Gijs,

Many thanks. Any chance of getting a copy of the Osipova and Potikhonova articles? I'm interested in their statistical designs and analyses.

Apparently you already have a copy of the Yoder and Vukabratovitch's book. What's your opinion of it? The reason I ask is they mainly publish in the area of opto-mechanical systems design (yawn). Maybe this one is an exciting bussman's holiday. :-D)

Ed
 
...

What I did not mention in my quotes is that the scientits also mention that at higher magnifications like 10x, observers can have a short time of optimum image stability and then trembling starts to blur the image.
The articles are really worthwile reading. They also published a paper on image stabilization.
Gijs

Yes, I need those papers ... too.

Ed
 
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Holger,

That's very good to hear about the "complimentary math". That approach gives both lay readers and more technically minded readers ways to "plug in".

I've read astronomy books that were structured this way. They discuss the concepts in the text, and then have a box with mathematical expressions for those who want to delve deeper.

I've been a professional writer for 20 years, I'm sure I could polish your translation. Let Harri Deutsch know I'm for hire. Ich habe auch drei Jahre Deutsch, das könnte helfen. The truth is, your English is better than that of some Americans I know so it wouldn't take much tweaking.

If you retained the foreign publishing rights, you could publish your own e-book for little cost and sell it through amazon.

Brock

Good to know, Brock, if I need somebody to polish my English translation, I will get you in contact with Harri Deutsch.

Actually, though, I hope there will be a publisher doing the translation, using his own staff, since I have spent too much time already with this book and I need to get back to the work I am payed for.

Anyway, let's wait and see how things will develop ...

Cheers,
Holger
 
Good to know, Brock, if I need somebody to polish my English translation, I will get you in contact with Harri Deutsch.

Actually, though, I hope there will be a publisher doing the translation, using his own staff, since I have spent too much time already with this book and I need to get back to the work I am payed for.

Anyway, let's wait and see how things will develop ...

Cheers,
Holger

Yes, get back to the work you're paid for (see, just a tweak!).

If the publisher won't pay for the translation, contact the graduate-level languages departments at German universities. No doubt, there will be some students studying German-English translation, and translating your book could be a credit project for them.

<B>
 
The problem with translating ist, there are too many bad ones to be found. "Bad" meaning a simply conversion from one language into the other.
I started reading books in english because the german translations where so bad,I could still see the original english sentences lurking behind the german ones. Its difficult to make a really good conversion, which will cost time and therefore money. Maybe thats why it rarely happens?
 
One of the few, I think, is the Richard Wilhelm translation of the Chinese I-Ching, first into German and then, by Cary Baynes, into English. The way the story goes, Wilhelm first translated the book into German and then back again into Chinese for comparison with the original by Chinese scholars. I'm not sure if Baynes used that much rigor going from German to English. However, it occurs to me that Holger may not even need the German translation. ;)
 

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Ed (posts 248 and 249)
I like the Yoder and Vukobratovitch booklet (it has only 140 pages in a small size volume), since it contains a lot of valuable information in a condensed volume. It also has a lot of mathematics, but if you are not interested in that part there is still enough useful information to read. The bibliography section is also interesting certainly if you want to read further about specific subjects.
Gijs
 
Ed (posts 248 and 249)
I like the Yoder and Vukobratovitch booklet (it has only 140 pages in a small size volume), since it contains a lot of valuable information in a condensed volume. It also has a lot of mathematics, but if you are not interested in that part there is still enough useful information to read. The bibliography section is also interesting certainly if you want to read further about specific subjects.
Gijs

Mathematics is good, ... preferable, actually. (I'm a mathematical psychologist.) But my interest is primarily human-system performance evaluation/optimization, and there's not too much shared interest in that subject. Vukovatovich et al get me going.

My copy of the SPIE guide should arrive soon, so we might find ourselves talking again soon.

Regards,
Ed
 
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Ed (posts 248 and 249)
I like the Yoder and Vukobratovitch booklet (it has only 140 pages in a small size volume), since it contains a lot of valuable information in a condensed volume. It also has a lot of mathematics, but if you are not interested in that part there is still enough useful information to read. The bibliography section is also interesting certainly if you want to read further about specific subjects.
Gijs

Definitely - and on p. 133 they also cite my publication on binocular distortion ;-)

Cheers,
Holger
 
Brock, this post is especially for you....

Me last week - Come on Brock, enough with this RB nonsense!!! Stop whining about an issue that most people can't even see, or if they do, are NOT bothered by it. And this about binos you haven't even looked though!!!

Me tonight at Bass Pro in Grapevine near DFW airport comparing 3 10X binos, the Swarovision 10x42, the SV 10x42 SLC HD and the Leica 10x32 Ultravid HD (Leica UV HD 10x42 not on display) - Rolling Ball?!?! It sure doesn't look like RB to me - more like being in an amusement park house of funny mirrors. Or, as accurately as I can describe it, viewing things from the bottom of the pool with a small breeze causing a gentle ripple, i.e. even panning slowly with these binos gives the image a most unrealistic rippling effect.

Apologies are in order, but enough already. People are either going to see it or not, or be bothered by it or not. Although the view didn't make me even slightly queasy because I rarely get sea sick, even on small boats for hours at a time in choppy waters in order to dive less popular dive sites. No way could I use these. This type of jarring distortion would tire my eyes and give me a headache in short order because it popped out no matter how slowly I panned irrelevant of the background.

A short comparison of the image presented by the trio above indoors with artificial lighting varying from reasonably well lit to corners of the store that closely replicated the last 10 or so minutes of twilight. Unfortunately I only spent about 3 to 5 minutes with each, more than enough time for me to see the obvious differences between them, but I'd obviously need more time, including under bright sunny conditions, before handing over my CC.

Keeping in mind that as I use my eyes critically about 9 to 10 hours every day, so I'm especially hard on any optics that tire my eyes or make them feel like they are working too hard in order to overcome weaknesses or defects.

SV - best image and best sharpness. Everything snapped sharply into focus, but panning with these made them a total non-starter for me. Its focusing knob also had the worst feel. Almost like every 1mm was notched. Possibly because it's the demo unit and roughly manhandled by too many careless customers?

SLC HD - only marginally behind the above, but the differences were immediately and easily seen. No problems with the focus.

Leica UV HD - sadly it wasn't close or even in the same class. I kept on fiddling with the focus trying to get a sharper image, but it couldn't come close to that achieved by the two above. Best ergos for my small hands and smoothest focus and diopter adjustment.

Lastly, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the Meopta 10x42 HD. There wasn't one on hand for me to compare it to, but having checked it out a few times before I felt that it was more than comparable to the SLC HD. Slightly more pin cushion and smaller sweet spot, but brighter image with zero CA that I could detect within its sharp sweet spot. The SLC HD is excellent in its CA control and most people would rate it as not having any, but from what I recall the Meoptas HD was even better. It's a real bargain compared to the above three, and I'd be hard pressed to spend the extra money for the SLC HD because IMHO it's six of one versus half a dozen of the other, i.e. which trade offs suit you best.

It's a pity about the SV's distortion as I felt that the upgrade in image quality is easily seen, and while not huge, definitely worth the extra money with the proviso that its small weaknesses don't bother you. Sadly, I fall into Brock's camp so it's not even an option for me.
 
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Brock, this post is especially for you....

Me last week - Come on Brock, enough with this RB nonsense!!! Stop whining about an issue that most people can't even see, or if they do, are NOT bothered by it. And this about binos you haven't even looked though!!!

Me tonight at Bass Pro in Grapevine near DFW airport comparing 3 10X binos, the Swarovision 10x42, the SV 10x42 SLC HD and the Leica 10x32 Ultravid HD (Leica UV HD 10x42 not on display) - Rolling Ball?!?! It sure doesn't look like RB to me - more like being in an amusement park house of funny mirrors. Or, as accurately as I can describe it, viewing things from the bottom of the pool with a small breeze causing a gentle ripple, i.e. even panning slowly with these binos gives the image a most unrealistic rippling effect.

Apologies are in order, but enough already. People are either going to see it or not, or be bothered by it or not. Although the view didn't make me even slightly queasy because I rarely get sea sick, even on small boats for hours at a time in choppy waters in order to dive less popular dive sites. No way could I use these. This type of jarring distortion would tire my eyes and give me a headache in short order because it popped out no matter how slowly I panned irrelevant of the background.

A short comparison of the image presented by the trio above indoors with artificial lighting varying from reasonably well lit to corners of the store that closely replicated the last 10 or so minutes of twilight. Unfortunately I only spent about 3 to 5 minutes with each, more than enough time for me to see the obvious differences between them, but I'd obviously need more time, including under bright sunny conditions, before handing over my CC.

Keeping in mind that as I use my eyes critically about 9 to 10 hours every day, so I'm especially hard on any optics that tire my eyes or make them feel like they are working too hard in order to overcome weaknesses or defects.

SV - best image and best sharpness. Everything snapped sharply into focus, but panning with these made them a total non-starter for me. Its focusing knob also had the worst feel. Almost like every 1mm was notched. Possibly because it's the demo unit and roughly manhandled by too many careless customers?

SLC HD - only marginally behind the above, but the differences were immediately and easily seen. No problems with the focus.

Leica UV HD - sadly it wasn't close or even in the same class. I kept on fiddling with the focus trying to get a sharper image, but it couldn't come close to that achieved by the two above. Best ergos for my small hands and smoothest focus and diopter adjustment.

Lastly, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the Meopta 10x42 HD. There wasn't one on hand for me to compare it to, but having checked it out a few times before I felt that it was more than comparable to the SLC HD. Slightly more pin cushion and smaller sweet spot, but brighter image with zero CA that I could detect within its sharp sweet spot. The SLC HD is excellent in its CA control and most people would rate it as not having any, but from what I recall the Meoptas HD was even better. It's a real bargain compared to the above three, and I'd be hard pressed to spend the extra money for the SLC HD because IMHO it's six of one versus half a dozen of the other, i.e. which trade offs suit you best.

It's a pity about the SV's distortion as I felt that the upgrade in image quality is easily seen, and while not huge, definitely worth the extra money with the proviso that its small weaknesses don't bother you. Sadly, I fall into Brock's camp so it's not even an option for me.


Well, this will keep the ''ball'' ''rolling'' right along..........
 
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