Sand-Plover identification, Virginia, USA (3 Viewers)

[Dave B]

Martin

Like many I for one appreciate your long and descriptive response to this Forum however I would to seek clarification on your first point that of the moult for Greater Sand Plover. It is a point that I am certain will not change the conclusion. As your arguments on all other points as far as I am concerned outweigh any concerns I have over my query.

Many Greater SP start arriving back here (Bahrain) as early as early July many still retain what I regard as vestiges or remnants of summer plumage - red or tan colour in breast bands in particular. Many Greater stay until November when they move on with only a few wintering by which time of course they have lost any colour associated with summer plumage, ie. have attained full winter plumage.

In post no 19 I attached a recent picture from here of a Greater showing a considerable amount of colour in the chest band, yesterday I photographed another with a slightly less amount of what I regard as retained remnants of summer plumage ie. still shows some colour (see pic attached). I would contend that the amount on the later is equitable with that on the Virgina bird. Maybe I have misinterpreted the definition of remnants of summer plumage I would be interested if you could elaborate further. I have added a second picture of birds from early July (10th) indicating that Greater do move from their breeding ground before undertaking their winter moult

Hi Howard

This is very interesting. Here in Malaysia it is certainly true that Greater Sand Plovers are very rarely seen with any vestiges of breeding plumage remaining on southward migration, In fact, I can only dig out photos of one bird (seen here and photographed on 5th August) among the many thousands I have watched.

There is supposed to be a difference in moult timing between races (columbinus being about two months earlier to moult and breed than the other two, according to Chandler), but that should not make it any easier to see columbinus Greaters in breeding plumage on southward migration I wouldn't have thought.

Of course, any individual can delay/suspend the moult process, so it isn't a watertight argument that a bird in breeding plumage on southward migration cannot be Greater.

Still, I'm surprised you are seeing so many birds with remnants of breeding dress.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Howard King]

Hi Howard

Still, I'm surprised you are seeing so many birds with remnants of breeding dress.

Cheers

Dave

I had never given it any thought before it was only after reading the response from Martin Garner. I have been going through my photos from late June onwards -within these pics there are a surprising number, a majority in fact that show vestiges of summer plumage. At what point do birds start arriving with you.

 

[Microtus]

The Virginia bird showed a fairly complete orange-breast band, stronger in color and more complete than Howard's recently photographed bird. It did not, however, have any orange or tan color on the face, as his attachment bird has. The Virginia bird had far more across the chest than Dave B's bird has.

 

[JANJ]

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Some good suggestions provided by Martin. Just a quick wonder about the Mongolian suggestion, regarding the bill dimension.
I was under the impression that the mongolus group (Mongolian Plover) is the shorter-billed compared to the atrifrons group (Lesser Sand Plover), which is longer-billed or slimmer-billed. Given the range of Mongolian one can perhaps expect records from western N. America being of this species. However, the bill of the Virginia sand plover has a bill lenght which in my opinion oversize a Mongolian and perhaps better fits one of the other ssp of Lesser Sand Plover, perhaps this race:

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog....A05:00.000

I realise that in Mongolian/Lesser variation in bill size also can be indipendant of race/species, more on individual variation basis and perhaps according to age. Which brings me to the next question. Is the plover correctly aged?
Peter Pyle suggest a 2cy bird with heavily worn wing coverts. Has this been confirmed?

When Martin mention that all Greater has a the 'overlong looking bill' he of course referes to leschenaultii and crassirostris and excluding columbinus, which then would make this one a crassirostris (also on plumage features). Not the oversized bill of a Greater I would say. Note that the nail is longer than the basal part, even if the impression from this image might suggest equal length:

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/99432546

I must say, the more I put myself into the learning process the more confused I get.
Reading Erik's et al great paper is a real eye openar, since I´m a bit of a novice when it comes to sand plover identification. I fully understand the complexity ragarding these two/three species, and have seen only a handfull myself of Greater and Lesser.

JanJ

 

[Howard King]

JanJ - FOLLOWED your first link and ended up shopping in China

Microtus

here is another shot from 11th September showing a bit more in the way of marking on the chest but still has some tan around the eye

 

[Dave B]

At what point do birds start arriving with you.

Late July or early August will see the first birds arriving here. This no doubt reflects the later breeding of the nominate race.

Dave

 

[JANJ]

Try this Howard:

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/5134629/

JanJ

 

[Howard King]

Dave

Quoting from Eric Hirschfeld book "Birds in Bahrain" he recorded a juv as early as 12th June -for me numbers build up quickly end of June through July.
http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/index.php/2009/06/

 

[Howard King]

bill length in photos- - ones perception of length changes with the angle of the birds head even when seen square on - Take these 3 shots of the same bird - in the first, a head down shot the bill looks very short and stubby yet it seems to thin out and lengthen as the head is rotated up - think the Virgina Bird bill similar to this individual seen here

JanJ LINK is fine now and yes certain similarities here too

 

[l_raty]

Just a quick wonder about the Mongolian suggestion, regarding the bill dimension.
I was under the impression that the mongolus group (Mongolian Plover) is the shorter-billed compared to the atrifrons group (Lesser Sand Plover), which is longer-billed or slimmer-billed. Given the range of Mongolian one can perhaps expect records from western N. America being of this species. However, the bill of the Virginia sand plover has a bill lenght which in my opinion oversize a Mongolian and perhaps better fits one of the other ssp of Lesser Sand Plover, perhaps this race:
[...]
http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/5134629/

But these pics are taken in Japan, thus within the normal range of Mongolian and outside the expected range of schaeferi...
And look at bird's flanks...

L -

 

[JANJ]

But these pics are taken in Japan, thus within the normal range of Mongolian and outside the expected range of schaeferi...
And look at bird's flanks...

L -

Whoops, your right. But the bill is long.

JanJ

 

[petemorris]

I agree that the bird looks good for Mongolian Plover. It is surprising to many that Mongolian is intermediate between Lesser and Greater, and lone individuals can be difficult. I do not agree that the bill is too long for Mongolian. Attached are two pictures of migrant birds in Sulawesi. One classic Mongolian with nicely marked flanks, and a second, cleaner looking bird, alongside a Greater Sandplover. Here the much more pointed bill structure of the Greater Sandplover, mentioned by Martin and others, can clearly be seen. Shots were taken in late September, and as can be seen, the legs are greenish and similar to the Greater, though not quite as pale. Also a flight shot added to show the projecting feet and the tail pattern of a summer-plumaged Mongolian from Taiwan in May.

Cheers

Pete

 

[lostinjapan]

Although Jan included shots from Japan, where indeed the expected species/subspecies would be Mongolian Plover, the pictures are on the site because there are always a few birds including my own bird from May 2006 which have appreciably longer bills which are not typical in Mongolian Plover seen in Japan are more typical of the Lesser Sand Plover group further to the west...so begging the question do Lesser Sand Plover occur in Japan i.e. further east as a regular vagrant or do some Mongolian simply have longer bills.

I am also confused now as to whether if this American bird is a Mongolian Plover as has latterly been claimed by some..how could it as the two races in that group don't usually show longer bills...surely it would be more likely to be a Lesser Sand Plover.

I am also confused by Martin's comments about the overall structure of Mongolian Plover, describing them as rangier than Lesser. During the years I spent in Japan and on trips to Australia, I would say such a description was not true of the Mongolians that I saw. My memories of birds in Saudi Arabia are a little hazy but if anything I always felt they were a little longer-legged than Mongolian, but it is only an impression.

Moreover, I don't want to take issue with your assessment of your own pics Pete, as you have much greater knowledge than me, but in the 2nd image I see Lesser Sand Plover and not Mongolian as you state as I do believe that Mongolian do indeed have shorter bills on the whole than Lesser Sand Plover and structurally the bird just looks too bulky and hunched for Mongolian Plover from my experience.

Anyway thats my confused two-penneth...feel free to ignore me and go with the experts on this one.

Sean

 

[Dave B]

in the 2nd image I see Lesser Sand Plover and not Mongolian

Surely not with flanks and a bill shape like that Sean?

Dave

 

[lostinjapan]

Dear Dave

As I said I am not taking issue with the ID of Pete's own pic, rather just confused as to me that shape of bill (I am not familiar with the flanks ID feature) is not common among the Mongolian Plover I see in Japan..unless of course I am getting subspecies mixed up.

Sean

 

[dacol]

This discussion of the VA sand plover made me wonder whether you guys have any doubts about the identification of the sand plover that was in Jacksonville, Fl, in the Spring of 2009:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mudhen/sets/72157619192774764/detail/

See also: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=1484451

Dalcio

 

[JANJ]

There can be no doubt about the Florida sand plover being a Greater!
And very good images of it to!

JanJ

 

[Hans Larsson]

I don´t have the expert knowledge of these species to go into detail, so I will only share my brief impression. And like Killian states - digging too deep into certain details may actually only complicate matters.

I agree with Killian that LSP looks more well balanced, with longer rear and smaller head. The large eye gives LSP a very "cute" look. GSP always seems awkward in some way, with proportionally larger head, longer/more slender and pointed bill off course, and a shorter rear. I have only had a glance at the pics of the VA plover, but to me, shape and face expression is clearly that of LSP.

I would like to stress the fact the bird seems very worn and probably is in moult too. Especially the feathering around the bill looks a bit unnatural, wich may affect the shape. My opinion is based on very subjective facts, I know , but I think the "persona" of LSP clearly shines through..

Hans

 

[Dave B]

Yesterday I photographed an extraordinary sand plover at my local wader roost.

The race of Lesser Sand Plover we get here is schaeferi, the longest-billed of the atrifrons group. Even so, this bird probably has the longest bill of any Lesser I've ever seen. It also has yellowish legs and seems a good deal bigger than a more typical Lesser in the foreground.

Despite these 'pro-Greater' factors, the jizz of the bird was, to my eyes, unmistakably Lesser, and the bill shape (rather thin at the base and with a culmenary bulge limited to the final third) and the fact that it was still largely in breeding plumage add support to the id. There is a undoubted Greater in the background looking toward the camera (second pic).

I'd be interested to read other thoughts, and will not be surprised if there are those who think it is a Greater! As has been said many times, this pair can be very tricky!

Cheers

Dave

 

[Howard King]

Dave

interesting to say the least - two questions - are all your Lesser schaeferi if so can we can assume the one in front of the subject bird is OK for that ID
Secondly do you have a close up picture featuring a Greater from your location for comparison