Severe Noise Using The Panasonic G1/Kowa 883 For Digiscoping (1 Viewer)

[Brian Du Bretagne]

Hello Everybody.
Like many digiscopers i followed the thread started by Neil "The Panasonic G1,what a gem for digiscoping".
This thread is not a criticism of the camera,more a "can you assist me" thread.
I was overwhelmed be the quality of images realised by the G1.Subsequenlty i bought one.I had been using since March of this year the Nikon P6000.
I have been using the G1 with it's standard lens kit for almost 2 weeks now attached to the Kowa 883 angled scope 30x fixed eyepiece and the Kowa DA3 balance bar.Every single day for at least 4 hours a day.I have shot in all lights mainly with aperture priority mode,generally getting used to the various settings.
My problem is that no matter what light conditions i shoot in,i am experiencing severe noise problems.
These 3 images were taken today in bright sunlight with an iso of 400.Straight out of the G1 no enchancement in Adobe simply resized to comply with BF regs.
You can see the noise quite clearly.
Do you feel that i'm going to have to use a noise reduction plug-in with my Photoshop elements 7 ?.If so which one do you prefer ?
Or do you have any other advise to give ?
Thanking you in advance.:-C Ps.The Blue tit is badly under exposed.Sorry !!!!

 

[Paul Corfield]

I don't have a G1 so can't help with any camera settings. For noise removal though I've used the Noise Ninja plug in for Photoshop for a number of years now and always had good results wit it. Here's an example of what it can do with one of your posted images.

Paul.

 

[Brian Du Bretagne]

Muddy Backgrounds.

Paul.
Thank you very much.You have certainly improved the image.
My brother Ron McCombe (also a member of BF) swears by noise ninja.It looks like i'm going to need it.
What i don't understand is why when shooting subjects with foliage in the background,my backgrounds have a" muddy soupy" look to them and stange light reflection.Global settings are iso 400.Aperture priority,spot focus and approx -3 to underexpose slightly.Sorry for the poor quality of focus.
Heres an example.
Your opinion would be appreciated.
Apologies for the quality of image but it does show this wierd light reflection and of course,"noise galore" !!!!

 

[Neil]

"My problem is that no matter what light conditions i shoot in,i am experiencing severe noise problems."

Brian,
Nice photos. I'm not sure what you mean by the quotation above. I ran the third photo through Colormancer . It measured the noise as very low, in fact one of the lowest readings I've seen on photos I've put through it and I use it every day. You could still improve it slightly by doing as Paul suggested. Do you have an example of one of the noisiest photos? And post one from the P6000 for comparison.
Neil.

 

[RJM]

Brian, those out of focus ovals are unfortunately common in digiscoping pics. We discuss probable causes in this thread.

 

[Paul Corfield]

I'd agree with Neil that the images aren't that noisy, especially as far the classic speckled high iso noise. There is a pattern there however and I'd say it's mostly colour noise rather than luminance noise.

In noise ninja I only smoothed out the background and didn't remove any noise at all from the actual bird. Plus I sharpened the bird a little and that would have enhanced noise if it was there to any great degree.

The out of focus background pattern, also called bokeh, is the pattern the scope/camera combination will produce. There's not much you can do about it. Distance between bird and background will produce different patterns and the further the background is behind the bird then the better the results will probably be.

Paul.

 

[Paul Corfield]

This is how the Blue Tit would look after Noise Ninja. Again, no noise removed from the bird, only the background.

Paul.

 

[Brian Du Bretagne]

"My problem is that no matter what light conditions i shoot in,i am experiencing severe noise problems."

Brian,
Nice photos. I'm not sure what you mean by the quotation above. I ran the third photo through Colormancer . It measured the noise as very low, in fact one of the lowest readings I've seen on photos I've put through it and I use it every day. You could still improve it slightly by doing as Paul suggested. Do you have an example of one of the noisiest photos? And post one from the P6000 for comparison.
Neil.

Hi Neil.
Thanks for info.
Before i post comparison thumbnails,a thought has just occured to me.
May i ask you when you were using the kit lens with your swarvo scope,did you apply much zoom to the kit lens ?.I just "tweek" the kit lens 1/2inch to reduce vignetting.I have removed the eyecup of the Kowa and both lenses are very close together could this be a factor in exagerating out of focus ovals or bokeh as RJM mentioned ?.These ovals do not exist in my P6000 images.

 

[Brian Du Bretagne]

Thank you

This is how the Blue Tit would look after Noise Ninja. Again, no noise removed from the bird, only the background.

Paul.

Thanks Paul.
There is no question that Noise Ninja is on the shopping list.

May i ask you if it's simple to use ? and how does it "plug in" to my Adobe elements 7.Is it a complicated process (i'm just your average lap top user)

 

[Brian Du Bretagne]

Thank you

Brian, those out of focus ovals are unfortunately common in digiscoping pics. We discuss probable causes in this thread.

Thanks RJM.Interesting thread.
These "ovals" never appear in my P6000 images.:t:

 

[Brian Du Bretagne]

Interesting.

I'd agree with Neil that the images aren't that noisy, especially as far the classic speckled high iso noise. There is a pattern there however and I'd say it's mostly colour noise rather than luminance noise.

In noise ninja I only smoothed out the background and didn't remove any noise at all from the actual bird. Plus I sharpened the bird a little and that would have enhanced noise if it was there to any great degree.

The out of focus background pattern, also called bokeh, is the pattern the scope/camera combination will produce. There's not much you can do about it. Distance between bird and background will produce different patterns and the further the background is behind the bird then the better the results will probably be.

Paul.

It appears that bokeh is a large problem in this GI/Kowa combo.Especially with foliage backgrounds.Heres a sparrow taken with no "green" back-drop.You would think it was another camera.

 

[Paul Corfield]

Thanks Paul.
There is no question that Noise Ninja is on the shopping list.

May i ask you if it's simple to use ? and how does it "plug in" to my Adobe elements 7.Is it a complicated process (i'm just your average lap top user)

It's very simple to install and I think it has an installer built in. Some info here.

It's very simple to use. I tell it to profile the image and it looks at the noise levels ans smooths them out. You can over ride any settings if the noise removal was too much or not enough for your liking. I tend to just do the full noise removal and then use a tool called the noise brush. With the noise brush you just go over any area where the noise removal was too great and it allows you to undo the noise removal and regain details. I use the noise brush on the bird and any branches/leaves that are in focus. There's another button which will highlight where you have used the noise brush so that you can be sure you haven't missed a bit.

Paul.

 

[RJM]

The bokeh might improve if you stop down the camera lens to F8.

 

[Musoman]

Brian , i think a background of lots of leaves and tress is a lot trickier for a camera than a blue sky background, where the contrast between subject and background is better defined.

Having said that, you photos are good despite your worries. Most of your problems seem to be post processing, and as an example, i took the photo you thought was the worse, and ran it through PS CS4

I didnt apply any sharpening at all. I only used Noise Ninja for de-noising ( which wasnt much at all ), then balanced the Shadows and Light. Thats it.

I think the photo is more than exceptable

 

[Musoman]

And again, with a small amount of sharpening, minor colour balance, and contrast upped a little

 

[Paul Corfield]

I think the last one has gone way beyond what is natural or appealing. Maybe check your monitor if it looks ok on your screen. Not to turn it into a competition or anything but I'd think this is somewhere about right. In this order I did - Noise Ninja/Smart Sharpen/manually adjust levels to bring histogram under control/very tiny saturation increase/Save for web at very high quality.

Paul.

 

[Musoman]

Yes, on reflection it does look a little too much. But on Brians original, my first and your one above, there seems to be too much green, like a cast

 

[michha62]

Paul.
Thank you very much.You have certainly improved the image.
My brother Ron McCombe (also a member of BF) swears by noise ninja.It looks like i'm going to need it.
What i don't understand is why when shooting subjects with foliage in the background,my backgrounds have a" muddy soupy" look to them and stange light reflection.Global settings are iso 400.Aperture priority,spot focus and approx -3 to underexpose slightly.Sorry for the poor quality of focus.
Heres an example.
Your opinion would be appreciated.
Apologies for the quality of image but it does show this wierd light reflection and of course,"noise galore" !!!!

The noise you are experiencing is the result of underexposure as you are exposing at -3. You need to be 'exposing to the right' ie over exposing to the maximum, without blowing the whites. By then recoving the whites in PP, you should get a well exposed image without any of the apparent noise. The forum and internet will provide loads of good advice on the subject. I apprieciate that it is tempting when d'scoping to underexpose in an attempt to reduce exposure time, but better results will be achieved by upping the iso, exposing to the right and adjusting the exposure in pp.
A liitle noise reduction may well be necessary on the backgroud - Noise ninja or any of the others will deal with this, but it should never be necessary to apply to the bird in a correctly exposed image.

regards
mike

 

[Brian Du Bretagne]

Thank you

I think the last one has gone way beyond what is natural or appealing. Maybe check your monitor if it looks ok on your screen. Not to turn it into a competition or anything but I'd think this is somewhere about right. In this order I did - Noise Ninja/Smart Sharpen/manually adjust levels to bring histogram under control/very tiny saturation increase/Save for web at very high quality.

Paul.

Great work on this image that i would normally have "binned".
I appreciate enormously your explanation re:"post enchancement" in Adobe.
Many thanks.:t:

 

[Brian Du Bretagne]

Thank you

The noise you are experiencing is the result of underexposure as you are exposing at -3. You need to be 'exposing to the right' ie over exposing to the maximum, without blowing the whites. By then recoving the whites in PP, you should get a well exposed image without any of the apparent noise. The forum and internet will provide loads of good advice on the subject. I apprieciate that it is tempting when d'scoping to underexpose in an attempt to reduce exposure time, but better results will be achieved by upping the iso, exposing to the right and adjusting the exposure in pp.
A liitle noise reduction may well be necessary on the backgroud - Noise ninja or any of the others will deal with this, but it should never be necessary to apply to the bird in a correctly exposed image.

regards
mike

Thanks Mike.
It's back to the "drawing board" re: exposure with G1.
I appreciate your advise.:t: