Should birders be conservationists? (1 Viewer)

[Charles Letterman]

Not sure where you get the 20 years thing from, and your reply is a cop-out anyway. I'm not mud-slinging or making any unreasonable personally targeted remarks, just asking a perfectly civil question.

You are saying, almost boasting, that you are a conservationist, what do you mean by that? I am really interested as to your definition.

 

[steve west]

My original question was "should birders be conservationists?" I stated that I was. If you need information about what a conservationist is I suggest that you go to the library (walk if you like) and after a month or so of reading you may be able to make up for your lack of understanding and have something half-interesting to say.
ALternatively you and others could have answered the question directly by saying "no - I am a birder but I don't give a toss about conservation".
Who the hell are you to demand my definition, God?

 

[gyrfalcon]

I don't understand why you are geting so violent Steve..
In order for us to answer your question, you need to be a bit more specific to what a Conservationist is, or more importantly what your definition of a Conservationist is.. Because many of us here are struggling. True we could just say, "yes" or "no", but it would be nice to make a more informed reply.

Try counting to 10 or something.. actually, better make that 100!

Peter

 

[Charles Letterman]

My original question was "should birders be conservationists?" I stated that I was. If you need information about what a conservationist is I suggest that you go to the library (walk if you like) and after a month or so of reading you may be able to make up for your lack of understanding and have something half-interesting to say.
ALternatively you and others could have answered the question directly by saying "no - I am a birder but I don't give a toss about conservation".
Who the hell are you to demand my definition, God?

I think this reply is completely irrational and unwarranted. I don’t think that any of my posts have been unreasonable, I am genuinely trying to understand the nature of the original post so that I can reply accordingly.

In another less civilised forum I would be happy to have slanging match with you Steve, but this isn't the place.

 

[deborah4]

Not sure it's safe to jump back in here!

'conservation' to me suggests (i) conserving use of planet's resources for future generations ii) sustainable use of resources iii) proactive remedial activity

Steve's original question was whether 'birders should be conservationists'. Since climate change is the big issue for conservationists, lets start with activities that relate to solely to birding:

1) Do you limit your birding to the garden?
2) Do you walk, cycle or use public transport for all your birding?
3) Do you use your car for all your local/county birding?
4) Do you use your car for all your local/county birding and for twitching single birds?
5) Do you use your car/hire a car, for all your local birding, twitching and for foreign holidays?
6) Do you use or hire a car, for all your local birding, twitching, for foreign holidays and use planes and ferries for birding trips?

I can list lots of things I personally do with regard to conservation that are unrelated to birding eg. recycling, voluntary work (environmentally related) (20yrs of it!), financial donations, petition signing, domestic reduction of energy, planting trees in the garden, walking to work each day, buying secondhand goods/clothes, reduction of packaging where possible, not using a washing machine or dishwasher, only taking short showers, not having children, etc etc.... but I expect most of us can list the bulk of those, so just interested in whether we are conservation minded in relation to birding.

 

[capercaillie]

I used to think birders are conservationists but I am becoming fast convinced that not everyone is, otherwise twitching would be the new smoking.

I also dont understand something. Is everyone who says that over-population is the main threat also against climate change? If so, why? Climate change could be the thing that finally gets rid of humans. I dont mind too much if several other species go as evolution will see them return at some point and they are not there for me, they are there to fill a niche. Climate change is certainly not a threat to the planet as it will still be spinning through space even under the worst climate scenarios. As long as we dont disrupt the things that really matter; plants, fungi and inverts, then life will carry on. We might not be there to see it but maybe thats no bad thing.

 

[Charles Letterman]

I can list lots of things I personally do or don't do with regard to conservation that are unrelated to birding eg. recycling, voluntary work (20yrs of it!), financial donations, petition signing, domestic reduction of energy, planting trees in the garden, buying secondhand goods/clothes, reduction of packaging where possible etc etc.... but I expect most of us can list the bulk of those, so just interested in whether we are conservation minded in relation to birding.

I bet a lot of us can't list the bulk of these Deborah! My answers to many of your questions would definitely not make me a conservationist, and I'm not sure that many 'birders' could answer all of those questions honestly and call themselves a conservationist by your definitions.

I could be wrong, but I think that very few BF members have a conscience as clear as yours.

 

[Charles Letterman]

I used to think birders are conservationists but I am becoming fast convinced that not everyone is, otherwise twitching would be the new smoking.

I also dont understand something. Is everyone who says that over-population is the main threat also against climate change? If so, why? Climate change could be the thing that finally gets rid of humans. I dont mind too much if several other species go as evolution will see them return at some point and they are not there for me, they are there to fill a niche. Climate change is certainly not a threat to the planet as it will still be spinning through space even under the worst climate scenarios. As long as we dont disrupt the things that really matter; plants, fungi and inverts, then life will carry on. We might not be there to see it but maybe thats no bad thing.

It's a fair point - all this fuss about saving 'The Planet', when what we're actually talking about is self preservation of the human species. And I imagine, although I am open to contradiction by experts, that humans are less likely to be able (or willing) to adapt to climate change due to our greed and expectations of quality of life. Birds, for example, will change their habits and behaviour out of necessity, and do it as a matter of course for survival.

 

[ColinD]

....I also dont understand something. Is everyone who says that over-population is the main threat also against climate change? If so, why? Climate change could be the thing that finally gets rid of humans. I dont mind too much if several other species go as evolution will see them return at some point and they are not there for me, they are there to fill a niche. Climate change is certainly not a threat to the planet as it will still be spinning through space even under the worst climate scenarios. As long as we dont disrupt the things that really matter; plants, fungi and inverts, then life will carry on. We might not be there to see it but maybe thats no bad thing.

I think over population and Climate Change (the kind brought on by Global Warming due to Human activity) are very, very closely linked (kind of obvious really).

It's estimated that the World population by 2035 will be 11 billion, that's nearly double what it is now. Ok, many of those will be in developing countries, but as we know, it's those same developing countries which are now trying to catch up to the developed World, and making the problem of Climate Change even worse (how many power stations does China already build in a year). People in developing countries will not be happy to live as they have always done - they want the same luxuries that we in so-called developed nations have. So yes, we are to blame for where we are now, but they will make it considerably worse in the future, because they see it as their right to "catch up".

If the World population doubles in the next twenty odd years, then logically even if you reduce your carbon footprint by half in that time, the World will still be pumping out the same amount of carbon in 2035.

Also, where will all of these people live? What will they eat? Where will they work? The Earth does not have limitless resources. As the populations grow, the pressure on wildlife will grow. That's why I say that all of our conservation work will be in vain if we don't combate over population. You can call a piece of land a nature reserve, and say it's protected for ever, but if people need to live there and build houses and grow crops, they will eventually and the reserve will be lost.

And what happens after 2035? Can we expect 20 billion by 2080? 40 billion by 2150? We're talking about a time period which is within many of our lifetimes, or at least our childrens lifetimes. My youngest son is 14. What will the population be by the time he is 70 in 2064? Can you imagine the amount of muck we'll be chucking into the atmosphere by then?

Can you imagine the response any politician would get if they proposed population control (the World over, not just in the UK)? It will never happen.

 

[deborah4]

And I imagine, although I am open to contradiction by experts, that humans are less likely to be able (or willing) to adapt to climate change due to our greed and expectations of quality of life. Birds, for example, will change their habits and behaviour out of necessity, and do it as a matter of course for survival.

I agree with your first point Charles - I noted this years ago, our response to degraded water supplies was to buy bottled water, cyclists' response to degraded air in inner cities was to wear masks, and of course, the heating just gets pumped up more and more in cold weather. All artificial means of adaptation marking our vulnerability as a species. What really p*sses me off is the popularity of outside oil heaters in pub gardens, private gardens, especially since the smoking ban. Ludicrous waste of fuel.

As for adaptation of species, much depends on the rate of change, the faster the change the less chance of adaptation. Also habitat is already being permanently lost in some parts of the globe (eg. arctic ice) leaving some species no where to go should things get much worse (polar bears, King Penguins). So while we could witness large dispersals/northerly extensions of range for some species, others could be lost altogether.

(btw: my conscience isn't totally clear, I've used ferries, planes and been in cars when birding!)

 

[gyrfalcon]

I can list lots of things I personally do or don't do with regard to conservation that are unrelated to birding eg. recycling, voluntary work (20yrs of it!), financial donations, petition signing, domestic reduction of energy, planting trees in the garden, buying secondhand goods/clothes, reduction of packaging where possible etc etc.... but I expect most of us can list the bulk of those, so just interested in whether we are conservation minded in relation to birding.

I bet a lot of us can't list the bulk of these Deborah! My answers to many of your questions would definitely not make me a conservationist, and I'm not sure that many 'birders' could answer all of those questions honestly and call themselves a conservationist by your definitions.

I could be wrong, but I think that very few BF members have a conscience as clear as yours.

Yep, I agree! I fall short on these definitions.. to the point that my life would be very stressful, empty and unhappy if I tried to live my birding like that.
And I don't even go twitching!

Well, James above has a similar view on life, and similarly clear conscience, but you're right, they are in a minority round here.

What we need now is a lower grade Conservationist definition.. Doesn't tick all the boxes, but is mindful of the issues, and tries to compensate by increasing awareness to others, and by doing regular local volunteer work to preserve local habitat / sign the petitions. A few more Birders would fit into that category perhaps!

Steve: Have you finished counting to 100?! which strength of conservation do you think all birders should fall within?

 

[Charles Letterman]

What we need now is a lower grade Conservationist definition.. Doesn't tick all the boxes, but is mindful of the issues, and tries to compensate by increasing awareness to others, and by doing regular local volunteer work to preserve local habitat / sign the petitions. A few more Birders would fit into that category perhaps!

Sadly - and I am not proud of the fact - the definition may have to be a bit 'lower grade' than that to include me.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Well.. Rational and reasonable steps! Rome wasn't built in a day etc.

 

[deborah4]

Yep, I agree! I fall short on these definitions.. to the point that my life would be very stressful, empty and unhappy if I tried to live my birding like that.
And I don't even go twitching!

'Stressful'? 'empty'? 'unhappy'?

On the contrary, just some of the benefits!

i) Very low fuel bills (about £50 per quarter in winter months, gas and elec. combined)

ii) No stress about having to maintain and pay for a car, finding somewhere to park

iii) complete freedom to socialise when and where you like without worrying about children (or indeed stress of child being ill, being run over etc etc)

iv) Finding quality goods secondhand that you would have to pay an arm and leg for if bought new

v) Not having to commute each day or coping with the stress of travelling at rush hour times.

vi) keeping fit by walking and cycling

It's a sad indictment of someone's view of life if their lives would be 'empty, stressful, and unhappy' if you took away their car! Yes there are disadvantages to a ''sustainable'' approach to birding but the only disadvantage is your list is not as competitive as the next person.

My life adds up to more than a list of birds and so do the needs of the environment IMV.

I agree, it should come in steps .... my lifestyle is the result of decisions made over the past 20 years. As for the birding by car, how about a start being use the car just once a week for birding if until now you've been using it 2-3 times. How about always using public transport for your local patch birding if up til now you use the car once a week, and just using the car for occasional birding trips further afield? How about cutting down twitching rare birds by car or using public transport to get there?

Where ever we are in the scale of things we can all start somewhere with a few changes now.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Nothing to do with lists, nothing to do with competitive listing. Just one or two very small windows every week to go birding and get some relaxation / fresh air / peace and quiet. Public transport would have me spend this premium time standing at a bus stop. No thanks, I'll drive for 20 minutes each way, and have some quality time. Could try cycling.. can't see that reducing my stress levels somehow.

Like I said, I can't go for the premium Conservation lifestyle, it would make me unhappy etc.. sorry!

 

[deborah4]

Just one or two very small windows every week to go birding and get some relaxation / fresh air / peace and quiet. Public transport would have me spend this premium time standing at a bus stop.

Well it's a tough job I agree ... but someone's got to do it

 

[gyrfalcon]

what's a tough job?

 

[Charles Letterman]

A minor issue, but I'm not sure that the bus that serves our village is anymore 'green' than my car!

 

[deborah4]

what's a tough job?

birding without a car of course, what did you think I meant!?

I was trying to inject some light hearted banter into an otherwise rather heavy thread and agreeing with you at the same time ... it's not much fun standing at bus stops, especially in pouring rain, and yes it does cut into the available time for birding (I too have only very limited opportunity to go birding as I work every weekend as well as during the week and at Uni too!)

 

[Karl J]

... I'm not sure that the bus that serves our village is anymore 'green' than my car!

i'm sure you know really.

how many people can you fit into a bus ?

how many people can you fit into a car ?

If everyone took the bus how many cars (and resultant pollution) could you take off the road ?