Should birders be conservationists? (1 Viewer)

[deborah4]

I must admit that I love shooting ducks and geese whether it's with a shotgun or a camera. I have given over $10k to conservation groups like Ducks Unlimited, and I plan on giving a lot more as finances allow in the coming years. If Birders were one-tenth as conservation minded (and willing to open their wallets for the cause) as hunters are, then a LOT more acres, in the US at least, could be preserved.

... The "greens" all seem to be miserable and want everyone to be as miserable as they are. Thank God, they're not over here in any numbers ruining everybody's lives here....

LOL this thread is gonna keep the mods busy tonight - four deletions so far, more to come?

Hi Anas

Welcome to BF, where the discussion of h*nting, closely followed I expect in the very near future, by cars and climate change , are not allowed.

Ps I'm a chicky licky green and very very depressed tonight :-O

 

[Sancho]

I don't understand the British fascination with guilt and hating the rich or successful. I do think though that the preoccupation with cars (a small percentage of that total 3%) is really an extension of the "have nots" vs "haves" type of socialism. The "greens" all seem to be miserable and want everyone to be as miserable as they are. Thank God, they're not over here in any numbers ruining everybody's lives here....

As well as (or perhaps because of) being both "green" and "socialist", Anas, I uphold your right to the expression of your viewpoint. You make interesting points, many about which I´ve wondered. Certainly here in Ireland, responsible hunting organisations do sterling conservation work. And I don´t understand the science enough to know who is telling me the truth about climate change. I think it´s still valid to be concerned about pollution, overpopulation, habitat destruction and species loss. But I´d like to specifically answer your point on the "green" preoccupation with cars as a form of envy. I´m not envious of anyone´s car. I have a car. I choose to leave it at home whenever possible because I don´t like driving, and never have. I feel that any time spent behind the wheel of a car is time wasted from my life. It´s just a lifestyle thing, I have my tastes and you have yours. I find cities clogged with cars depressing, and the air there stifling. It´s that simple. Happy Birding, Driving, and Hunting!:t:

 

[Jos Stratford]

Steve's original question was whether 'birders should be conservationists'. Since climate change is the big issue for conservationists, lets start with activities that relate to solely to birding:

It is a matter of opinion whether it is the big issue, it is one issue, one issue in many. A birder can drive non-stop and still be a leading conservationist

Steve's original question was whether 'birders should be conservationists'. Since climate change is the big issue for conservationists, lets start with activities that relate to solely to birding:

1) Do you limit your birding to the garden?
2) Do you walk, cycle or use public transport for all your birding?
3) Do you use your car for all your local/county birding?
4) Do you use your car for all your local/county birding and for twitching single birds?
5) Do you use your car/hire a car, for all your local birding, twitching and for foreign holidays?
6) Do you use or hire a car, for all your local birding, twitching, for foreign holidays and use planes and ferries for birding trips?

1. No
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes

And?

 

[Jos Stratford]

At one end of the spectrum is the bloke who discards empty drink cans on a nature reserve, and at the other end is the bloke who has a house in a tree and lives off the land.

But going back to the original posters question, how far towards the tree-dwellers end of the scale do you have to be to call yourself a conservationist?

The tree-dwelling swampy type may well contribute very little to conservation, sure his carbon footprint might be low, but if that bloke chucking a drink can on a nature reserve has paid an entrance fee to get in, or paid an annual subscription to the conservation body concerned or is on an overseas holiday and staying in a reserve whose very survival depends on ecotourism, then it could well be he who is serving the greater good of conservation. Conservation is more than being a carbonite.

 

[Sancho]

Ps I'm a chicky licky green and very very depressed tonight :-O

If Economics is the Dismal Science, Deborah4, I think Birding is the Dismal Hobby......

 

[deborah4]

If Economics is the Dismal Science, Deborah4, I think Birding is the Dismal Hobby......

It's sure getting that way on BF :-O Must spend more time at the allotment with my veggies (or should that be 'greens' .. or 'vegans' )

'and' Jos ... I'd suggest whether, in the light of that person being a ''leading conservationist'' (which should include an awareness of potential detrimental effects on bio-diversity due to anthropogenic contributions to the rate of cc.) - whether he/she might think about the necessity of driving ''all the time'' if, the bulk of that driving was purely for leisure/comfort and other more sustainable forms of transport were available.

However, of course, proactive development and preservation of one's own land for the benefit of declining/rare species of birds/mammals/butterflies etc, and the amount of conservation work that entails ... plus, through that conservation work, a secondary benefit of the education of others with regard to collecting data from ringing, breeding obs, identification, existing threats, proactive mitigation of habitat loss, no children and a high tolerance to low temperatures obviating the need for high domestic energy consumption .... ALL just might ... might... in the eyes of a chicky licky worried about the sky fallin' down, be grounds for forgiving a 'leading conservationist' for flying three times round the world and driving continuously from airport to airport in his/her spare time during the course of a single year

 

[Vectis Birder]

I wasn't going to get into this debate (I'd already got into a heated debate on the Biggest Twitch thread, and one's enough!) but it's been an interesting read so far.

Answering Deborah's questions:

1) Do you limit your birding to the garden? No

2) Do you walk, cycle or use public transport for all your birding? No

3) Do you use your car for all your local/county birding? Mostly, but not all.

4) Do you use your car for all your local/county birding and for twitching single birds? Pretty much so yes (see above). I'll twitch a bird locally (locally means the county).

5) Do you use your car/hire a car, for all your local birding, twitching and for foreign holidays? I don't hire cars while abroad - I hate driving enough in this country without the added hassle of driving on the 'wrong' side of the road and interpreting non-English signs!

6) Do you use or hire a car, for all your local birding, twitching, for foreign holidays and use planes and ferries for birding trips? As I said I do not hire cars abroad but I do use ferries and yes, I fly.

I will say that I am using my car less for birding, but this is more to do with my frustration at the hassle and stress that is UK driving these days and - yes - the exorbitant cost of fuel, rather than for any 'green' reasons. I do have to say that the high price of fuel isn't necessarily a bad thing though, as it does make people think twice about jumping in the car for short/unnecessary journeys.
I sold my bike last year, it never got used, but if fuel prices rise ever higher I may well be getting another.

Every little helps, as a certain supermarket's advertising slogan says, and whether you are a member of the RSPB or helping out at a nature reserve or taking care how much resources you use, or whether you are a full on 'bright-green-carbonite-do-not-travel-or-we're-all-buggered' type, I'd like to think we all do our bit no matter how small or how large.

 

[Vectis Birder]

If Economics is the Dismal Science, Deborah4, I think Birding is the Dismal Hobby......

I dunno, but I'm getting a bit depressed.

 

[Jos Stratford]

... grounds for forgiving a 'leading conservationist' for flying three times round the world and driving continuously from airport to airport in his/her spare time during the course of a single year

Shucks, that can't be me ...I would not call myself a leading conservationist by any measure, and as for 'three times per year, what are you on? It is going to be way above that! Having duly done my carbon calculations, I realised I am overdosing in carbon credits and thus have decided to reduce the horrendous mountain of them that is blotting my conscience, so have opted to make one foreign trip per month this year. So far, done six flights (but one was not my fault, the plane went the wrong way!) and the next one is in three weeks.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I relent, flying and driving is obscene - Delia, you can't visit anymore, sorry :-O:-O:-O

(if this is somewhat displeasing, do delete this single message and I will pretend it never existed)

 

[Charles Letterman]

Do you know, I'm not sure I care anymore.

What I love about 'birding', is sitting on Titchwell beach at 6 in the morning watching the sunrise and the Oystercatchers picking at the shallow pools. I enjoy watching the GC Grebes fishing from the Ouse Washes hides, and the Cormoronts flying over me at Paxton Pits. Even listening to the Mallards cackling from the elevated hide at Fowlmere makes me laugh every time.

I'm not convinced that 'climate change' or 'global warming' will change any of those experiences for me or generations after me, although I'm sure many posts after this one will try and convince me otherwise.

And that is why you can be a 'birder', but not a conservationist.

Selfish? Maybe. So shoot me.

 

[deborah4]

Do you know, I'm not sure I care anymore.

Me neither

So shoot me.

Me too

 

[Jos Stratford]

shoot me.

Me too

Carbon issue seems to be resolving itself, that's two down. Just another six billon or so and we'll be there.

 

[Sancho]

Carbon issue seems to be resolving itself, that's down. Just another six billon or so and we'll be there.

Don't decomposing corpses emit lots of methane? Have you any idea of the eco-disaster you people are fomenting? (What is it methane does again.....?)

 

[deborah4]

Don't decomposing corpses emit lots of methane? Have you any idea of the eco-disaster you people are fomenting? (What is it methane does again.....?)

It's all right Sancho, I'm not a 'carbonite' package, despite being a carbon based life form so therefore am not yet a farting corpse having dodged the bullet with that name on it. I'm thus still able to avoid minor attacks of explosive and rather smelly hot air being discharged from other carbon based life forms, simply by holding a hankerchief over my nose (made from re-usable piece of unbleached cotton naturally).

Or just go to bed of course

 

[Anas]

As well as (or perhaps because of) being both "green" and "socialist", Anas, I uphold your right to the expression of your viewpoint. You make interesting points, many about which I´ve wondered. Certainly here in Ireland, responsible hunting organisations do sterling conservation work. And I don´t understand the science enough to know who is telling me the truth about climate change. I think it´s still valid to be concerned about pollution, overpopulation, habitat destruction and species loss. But I´d like to specifically answer your point on the "green" preoccupation with cars as a form of envy. I´m not envious of anyone´s car. I have a car. I choose to leave it at home whenever possible because I don´t like driving, and never have. I feel that any time spent behind the wheel of a car is time wasted from my life. It´s just a lifestyle thing, I have my tastes and you have yours. I find cities clogged with cars depressing, and the air there stifling. It´s that simple. Happy Birding, Driving, and Hunting!:t:

Thank you for your very respectful opinion. I used to be a fervent anti-h*nting person, but I've found ideologies change as one gets older...

Indeed -- I used to loathe ducks and geese (these were considered vermin responsible for defecation on my boat), and it's only been through h*nting (didn't realize that was a swear-word on here!) that loathing has turned to a deep appreciation. I prefer to hold my quarry in my hand for observation rather than through a set of binoculars (and they taste better that way too!).

For the record, I hate sitting in traffic too. Where I live there's two big lakes and the biggest separates several cities with 2 freeways that go across the bridge creating bottlenecks. I try to avoid rush hour, and my usual commute is just 15-20min one way. But we have beautiful snow-capped mountains, fresh air, lush evergreens and some very beautiful scenery in general that make a Sunday afternoon drive quite an experience. The roads aren't deserted, but on the other hand you'll rarely get held up for more than a few minutes behind someone.

What I meant to post was this:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/62
TED is an incredible resource of some of the world's greatest minds getting together for talks/presentations. This particular talk answers the question should we spend $50B on trying to address global warming, or should we spend it elsewhere. A deeply thought-provoking discussion. Warning: It's easy to become a TED junkie and want to watch everything they have....

 

[Charles Letterman]

Carbon issue seems to be resolving itself, that's down. Just another six billon or so and we'll be there.

Does that mean I am finally doing my bit for conservation!!!???

 

[Jos Stratford]

Does that mean I am finally doing my bit for conservation!!!???

Only if you actually permit yourself to be shot

 

[Charles Letterman]

I knew there would be a catch. Not easy this conservation lark, is it?

 

[Sancho]

Not easy this conservation lark, is it?

Too damn right! You should try cycling my stupid rickshaw, it's doing nothing to conserve me, in fact quite the opposite.

Thanks for the link, Anas, that is very thought-provoking stuff, and as you say, quite addictive.....on the subject of cars, yes, in the modern world it's pretty impossible to enjoy solitude and the natural world if you don't have a car, and my point about city traffic was pretty fatuous....no-one enjoys it! (Remember that opening scene from the movie "Falling Down"?)