Swarovski DF 8x30W O GA STP (2 Viewers)

[Richard D]

To me the focuser is the one of the most precise of all my focusers for some reason, old school engineering?

Precision on all the Habichts is excellent. If you're not looking to move rapidly from close to distance the focusers do their job extremely well.

 

[Hermann]

regarding ED or equivalent glass in porros - aren't porros (or in particular the externally focusing design) supposed to have less CA than internally focusing roofs? I may not be the most CA sensitive person out there, but the porros I've owned/tried have seemed to perform very well in this regard.

Yes, I think so. ED glass became a necessity with internally focusing roofs, especially after the manufacturers considered it essential to help their customers looking at their toenails through their binoculars.

Hermann

 

[brocknroller]

Seconded. Admittedly I like my focuser somewhat on the stiff side, but the demo 8x30 unit I tried back in 2019 could in no way be described as stiff, let alone excessively so. Maybe it had been run in by the hundreds of people queuing up to try a Habicht? (joke - the Swaro rep had to hunt around in a couple of drawers before he found one.) For what it's worth, I never felt the so-called roughness of Swaro focusers was an issue for me, either - I'd rather have a focuser free from diopter drift. Then again, I don't have the touch of a safecracker, or a concert pianist...

Incidentally, I was lucky enough to try the Anniversary Edition Nikon EII 8x30 on the same trip and I have to admit I was underwhelmed. Leaving aside the fact it had neither sufficient eye relief to allow me to use it with glasses, or focus beyond infinity to allow me to use it without, I found the sharpness and overall clarity of the Habicht superior. Maybe not by a great deal, but enough to be noticeable. I'd like to have looked through a standard EII 8x30 to see if there was any difference between them, but none were available. No doubt it works well for plenty of folks, but I guess I'm not one of them, alas.

regarding ED or equivalent glass in porros - aren't porros (or in particular the externally focusing design) supposed to have less CA than internally focusing roofs? I may not be the most CA sensitive person out there, but the porros I've owned/tried have seemed to perform very well in this regard.

I have compared the 2017 100th Anniversary Edition and a 2015-16 E2 side by side, and I could see a clear difference. The 2017 AE has flat spectrum AR coatings that make blues "pop" whereas the early version (black body and earlier silver body) have coatings that "bump" in the red. On a sunny day, the red bump increases preceived contrast but on cloudy days or in the winter, the views get darker from the emphasis on the red.

But that wasn't the only change, the 2017+ E2s control CA and flaring better than its predecessors. Whites are not tinged with red but white and bright, which means the overall light transmission has increased.

The 2017 model also resolves texture details better than previous models. I compared the two looking at roses and I could see more details on the stamen and pistils with the newer model. It may not resolve as much fine detail as the Habicht, which from Tobias' review is closer to the SE in that regard, but it's a noticeble improvement.

In addition, the fall off at the edge is gradual and it still useable almost near the edge, which from what reviews/comments I've read about the Habicht is not true. It has steep field curvature. The Habicht was design in 1949, and the best I can tell, the only thing that's changed over the years are the AR coatings.

The 8x30 E has a long history, but only back to 1978. The revised model, the E2, first came on the scene in 1999 when I purchased my first sample. It had a silver body with flimsy rubber armoring that separated when exposed to heat, but it has a wider FOV than it's predecessor. Then Nikon improved the armoring and also kept tweaking the coatings, but they remained low in the blue and high in the red until 2017.

But for Tobias as well as others, the extra sharpness at the center may overcome all other shortcomings of the Habicht.

However, what I can't understand is how someone who wears eyeglasses would find the ER too short on the E2 (13.8mm) but not on the 8x30 Habicht's ER, which has even short ER (12mm), particularly given the E2 has a degree more FOV (8.8* vs. 7.8*), so you should be able to see more of the FOV with the E2 and sharper edges.

Brock

 

[brocknroller]

Here's a post where Henry Link compared the E2 with the Habicht. His E2s were not the latest (10 years old at the time of his post), but his Habichts were new.

Classic Porro Comparision: Swarovski Habicht 8x30 vs. Nikon 8x30 E2?

Anybody done a comparison between Swarovski's Habicht 8x30, and Nikon's 8x30 E2? I'm curious to know how these 2 porros compare to one another with regard to edge sharpness and CA, in particular. Love the size and classic look, yet I'm sure they have differing viewing characteristics.

www.birdforum.net

Brock

 

[brocknroller]

EDIT: Read the post again, the Habicht apparently has more travel focus past infinity than the E2. Still, the 12mm ER on the Habicht isn't eyeglass wearer friendly.

I had to laugh while reading Tobias's review of the 8x30 W when he described at all the modifications he had to make to the porro to compensate for its shortcomings. You really got to love the view to do all that!

Internal reflections: This is the one serious flaw in this glass. Especially with open pupil, the image is plagued by internal reflections of light sources or high contrast situations. Standing in a dark wood with bright patches of sunlight would be one example. The Nikon SE is way better in this respect. I built a sunshade which will not eliminate but reduce flare and ghosting.

Stiff focus
Being a waterproof construction, the focusing in the Habicht tends to be much stiffer than in nonwaterproof porros. The oculars need to be sealed against the body and the focussing mechanism needs to be waterproof, too. I am sure there could be better engineering solutions. I was not happy with the focusing, but the Swarovski service fixed it perfectly and it is now a real joy to use. A bit more friction than the SE, especially on cold days.

Eyecups
These are TOTALLY INADEQUATE - they are made from grey rubber and reflect light coming out of the ocular back into the optical system. They made me nervous until I realized I get less reflections without them, so I got rid of them and built my own (see below).

Loose diopter adjustment
The diopter adjustment ring will change its position if you don´t fix it with tape.

He had other gripes about the Habicht, but they were cosmetic.

Here's the whole review if you haven't read it.

greatestbinoculars: Swarovski Habicht 8x30 W binoculars review

He also has a review of his 1961 sample, which other than the torn leather comings, are still in great shape optically.

greatest binoculars: Swarovski Habicht 8x30 review

 

[Thotmosis]

In my Special Jungle Edition 10x40 GA i dont have any of the above mentioned problems

 

[PW42]

So the "sweet spot" is lopsided with more in focus horizontally than vertically. I hadn't heard that before. Tobias and Henry rated the sweet spot as 50% from center, so I assumed it was circular like on most binoculars. I have had binoculars the lopsided sweet spots such as the Nikon 7x35 Aculon, which has aspheric optics. Very sharp in the center, but with field curvature that shifts to the left. So on the right EP, the outer edge is in focus but the inner edge is out whereas on the left EP, the inner edge is in focus and the outer edge is out.

How large is the sweet spot on your sample, and is it the W or GA? There have been rumors that the GA IF version has better optics, but from what I can tell they are just that, rumors.

Also, how steep or gradual is the fall off after the sweet spot? That is, how steep is the field curvature? I've seen binoculars where I can either focus the center or the edge but not both at the same time.

My apologies for the delayed reply as I have only just seen the questions you asked.

I am beginning to think I may have a rogue pair as I have hardly ever had any glare (there was one notable exception) in the 7 years I have owned my pair which are 8x30W. Similarly I have found the eye relief fine with glasses (full fov) with the cups folded down. Focus is stiffish but very smooth.

Anyway the following are not measured observations but my estimation by eyeball. They are sharp horizontally for between 80%-90% of the width and then the edges fall away very sharply. Vertically I estimate the sharp area at between 50% and 60% of the height and then fall away gently. For sharp I mean there is no distiguishable difference from the centre. I cannot detect any significant focus error either horizontally or vertically. i.e. if the centre is in focus, all edges are in focus as well.

 

[brocknroller]

My apologies for the delayed reply as I have only just seen the questions you asked.

I am beginning to think I may have a rogue pair as I have hardly ever had any glare (there was one notable exception) in the 7 years I have owned my pair which are 8x30W. Similarly I have found the eye relief fine with glasses (full fov) with the cups folded down. Focus is stiffish but very smooth.

Anyway the following are not measured observations but my estimation by eyeball. They are sharp horizontally for between 80%-90% of the width and then the edges fall away very sharply. Vertically I estimate the sharp area at between 50% and 60% of the height and then fall away gently. For sharp I mean there is no distiguishable difference from the centre. I cannot detect any significant focus error either horizontally or vertically. i.e. if the centre is in focus, all edges are in focus as well.

Thanks for clarifying that. There are owners of the Swaro 8x32 EL that don't see any veiling glare with their samples either even though the false pupils around the exit pupils can be easily photograhped as can the light leaks in the Habicht. So, I suspect that it's not that you have an exceptional sample (if that were the case, I would try to make you an offer you can't refuse, since veiling glare is my biggest reservation). As Tobias described even in a wooded area with sun filtering through, it would create flaring. I had the same experience with the 8x32 EL. It had the best image I've seen though binoculars when it wasn't washed out by glare, which was most of the time.

Some people are more suseptible to chromatic aberration or rolling ball than others, but how someone could see veiling glare only once in seven years in binoculars notorious for it is puzzling. Perhaps because you use eyeglasses puts your eyes closer to the EPs and avoids the false pupils. It's also unusual that 12mm ER is enough to see the full FOV for eyeglass wearers. Most eyeglass wearers need 15-16mm useable ER to see the full FOV. You must have eyeglasses that sit very close to your eyes.

And you can see the image sharp to 80%-90% puts them right up there with the 8x32 EL, which was sharp to 90%, but in a circle, which again makes me wonder why Swaro decided to push it farther with lowering the distortion, which made more problems that it was worth (and created a small ring of blurriness, so in the end, you still only got 90% total). Of course, in bright sunlight with a constricted pupil, field curvature will be less noticeable.

All I can say is that Bino Gods have blessed you with everything you need to enjoy the 8x30 Habicht without having to make all the modifications Tobias did to enjoy the view. I'm that way with the Nikon 8x32 SE. A lot of people can't use it due to spherical aberration of the exit pupil causing kidney beaning, but I have no problems with that, probably due to my high-bridged nose, which doesn't let me get too close to the EPs. I can even use the SE with shorter E2 eyecups and see the field stop more comfortably, though I need to be careful not to tilt the bins horizontally to avoid image blackouts, which even then are fleeting.

So, different facial features are one explanation why some people can use particular bins and others can not. If I could see what you do through the Habichts I would definitely buy a pair since I'm a porro lover, and new samples have the latest Swaro AR coatings as did the 8x32 EL I had, which was also super sharp, had great contrast, and accurate colors, so I have an idea of what the view would be like with added 3-D effect. Amazing!

Can't afford to buy one right now, but I want to at least try a pair to find out why it's a "cult classic." I will inquire if either the Lost Creek Shoe Shop or Honey Creek Bill & Beak, two optics stores that carry Swaros, has a pair in stock. With Honey Creek, I think they are available only by special order.

Brock

 

[henry link]

Anyway the following are not measured observations but my estimation by eyeball. They are sharp horizontally for between 80%-90% of the width and then the edges fall away very sharply. Vertically I estimate the sharp area at between 50% and 60% of the height and then fall away gently. For sharp I mean there is no distiguishable difference from the centre. I cannot detect any significant focus error either horizontally or vertically. i.e. if the centre is in focus, all edges are in focus as well.

This has come up a number of times with various binoculars. Unless it's defective the binocular's off-axis fall off is symmetrical in every direction, but the horizontal vs vertical rotation of the eye is not symmetrical relative to the exit pupil of the binocular. Horizontal rotation creates more vignetting of the exit pupil toward the field edge at 3:00 and 9:00 than vertical rotation does at 12:00 and 6:00. The extra horizontal vignetting results in a smaller off-axis exit pupil with wider DOF at 9 and 3, which looks sharper than the larger less vignetted off-axis exit pupil at 12 and 6.

You can check whether this effect is in the binocular or results from asymmetrical eye movement by simply rotating the binocular 90º and then use normal eye movements to examine the off-axis sharpness through each eyepiece. You can also examine the behavior of the vignetting itself by looking at a highly defocused point source of light as it is moved from the field center to the edge in vertical and horizontal directions.

 

[PW42]

Some people are more suseptible to chromatic aberration or rolling ball than others, but how someone could see veiling glare only once in seven years in binoculars notorious for it is puzzling. Perhaps because you use eyeglasses puts your eyes closer to the EPs and avoids the false pupils. It's also unusual that 12mm ER is enough to see the full FOV for eyeglass wearers. Most eyeglass wearers need 15-16mm useable ER to see the full FOV. You must have eyeglasses that sit very close to your eyes.

Just to clarify, I have only experienced one really bad case of glare. I have occasionally had other times but it has been minor and easily adjusted out.

I am not sure how my glasses position compares with others. But I think one of the factors is, when the eyecups are folded down, the glasses sit very close to the lens - I imagine that people with significantly convex lenses would struggle.

You can check whether this effect is in the binocular or results from asymmetrical eye movement by simply rotating the binocular 90º and then use normal eye movements to examine the off-axis sharpness through each eyepiece. You can also examine the behavior of the vignetting itself by looking at a highly defocused point source of light as it is moved from the field center to the edge in vertical and horizontal directions.

That is very interesting. An inital brief test was inconclusive but clearly a different experienece compared with when used normally. I shall experiment further.

 

[Thotmosis]

Had a three hour walk today along the river at noon with my Habicht 8x30 GA IF. Autumn sun, very clear weather. No blackouts, no glare, flare or other reflections. Best handling of all my binoculars, lightweight, no focus issues as there is no focus and a very sharp almost technical view of boats, birds and beautiful scenery. A great day with a great binocular!

 

[Thotmosis]

Thanks for clarifying that. There are owners of the Swaro 8x32 EL that don't see any veiling glare with their samples either even though the false pupils around the exit pupils can be easily photograhped as can the light leaks in the Habicht. So, I suspect that it's not that you have an exceptional sample (if that were the case, I would try to make you an offer you can't refuse, since veiling glare is my biggest reservation). As Tobias described even in a wooded area with sun filtering through, it would create flaring. I had the same experience with the 8x32 EL. It had the best image I've seen though binoculars when it wasn't washed out by glare, which was most of the time.

With both my Habicht’s i see reflections when i look at night at street lights, but it’s boring. Under “normal” everyday use their just fine.

Some people are more suseptible to chromatic aberration or rolling ball than others, but how someone could see veiling glare only once in seven years in binoculars notorious for it is puzzling.

Everybody is different, the human brain can do magnificent tricks. Maybe I’m also lucky, my friend see chromatic aberration in binoculars where i dont see it.

All I can say is that Bino Gods have blessed you with everything you need to enjoy the 8x30 Habicht without having to make all the modifications

Hallelujah praise the Lord!

So, different facial features are one explanation why some people can use particular bins and others can not. If I could see what you do through the Habichts I would definitely buy a pair since I'm a porro lover, and new samples have the latest Swaro AR coatings as did the 8x32 EL I had, which was also super sharp, had great contrast, and accurate colors, so I have an idea of what the view would be like with added 3-D effect. Amazing!

Yes, you are absolutely right, its good to have choices.

Can't afford to buy one right now, but I want to at least try a pair to find out why it's a "cult classic." I will inquire if either the Lost Creek Shoe Shop or Honey Creek Bill & Beak, two optics stores that carry Swaros, has a pair in stock. With Honey Creek, I think they are available only by special order.

Your time will come Brock, i hope you will write a bestseller!!