The "Balkanization" of rarity reporting (2 Viewers)

[Mysticete]

This was most apparent to me when I visited Texas during peak butterfly vagrancy. Butterfly reports are not quite akin to birds especially because there is no regular platform like eBird or Rare Bird Alerts, but nonetheless stuff was shared and we all appreciate it. Some people posted their rarities on Facebook, some only on Instagram, but many had their personal group chats where they only told people they trusted or respected. But this was a complex issue. For instance, many long-time observers here will refuse to share anything with "younger" generations. Other big observers do not get along with other big observers, which is how I missed a good rarity due to one observer incorrectly suspecting I was trying to make friends with his rival. Others are more lenient but still require you to provide photo proof that you've found several of your own rarities (which could take 3, 4 or 5 years to accrue) before they'd trust you and let you into their "club". There was a remarkable US first kept quiet for over a year unless you were in "the club" (that being 1 of 14 different "the clubs").

I, innocently and mistakenly, thought it was smart to post all of my own sightings (and those of people standing beside me at the garden) in a single post on Facebook. Apparently I crossed several lines by doing so, and I am not only banned from a reserve owned by one of the observers but I had to deal with (aka ignore) hostile phone calls and facebook messages for nearly two weeks following.

My bias against "secret clubs" aside, it doesn't seem to escalate quite that far in birding luckily. But aside from the ease of accessible platforms these days, I assume in part (even if a small part), this helps to fuel the division towards where sightings are spoken for.

I would guess this is from the worry about insect collectors harvesting the butterfly for their collections. This attitude isn't all that different than what you find with herping, where there is a real worry that someone posting there herping spot could result in the site being pillaged, potentially resulting in the destruction of habitat and the removal of animals.

It's why I consider myself a birder first: other than owls, birders are much more open about information, not to mention you can bird and generally see most species with a minimum of invasive methods.

 

[opisska]

If that's important to you, you should also become a mammawatcher! We are still a very small community - unlike birding and herping, mammalwatching is still considered foolish by many as they consider most mammals next to impossible to see - as a result, everyone is usually very keen on sharing information with the others - we don't really know many people physically, but from the frequent online conversation, we feel like a group of friends anyway.

 

[Mysticete]

I actually am a mammalwatcher already, and have contributed reports to mammalwatching.com. Although the problem there is less about available information, but about just how damn difficult most mammals are to see and identified compared to birds!

 

[Tiraya]

I would guess this is from the worry about insect collectors harvesting the butterfly for their collections. This attitude isn't all that different than what you find with herping, where there is a real worry that someone posting there herping spot could result in the site being pillaged, potentially resulting in the destruction of habitat and the removal of animals.

It's why I consider myself a birder first: other than owls, birders are much more open about information, not to mention you can bird and generally see most species with a minimum of invasive methods.

Except these are national parks and reserves where collecting is not permitted. Granted, that doesn't stop people I'm sure, but it definitely discourages. And a lot of the good species are extirpated now from habitat or other factors, so I don't think even the notorious collectors visit anymore.

For the large part, based on what I am told, collection fear is not the issue. It's because they don't want people chasing or following up on sightings in general, usually because they believe most strongly in "find your own rarities" and don't like people following stuff up that isn't their own. I have heard that sentiment in the birding communities too, so it's not a new concept to me. I guess I'll abstain from deciding what I think of that opinion since it's fair enough.

 

[Tiraya]

Mammals in the UK were kept mega quiet and secret when I was there (15~ years ago). Mammal-watching in the UK was one of the most fruitless ventures I had ever given time as a result. I used to do a lot of night walks in hope of finding rodents. In 4 years I finally hit 10 mammal species in the UK, but there were so many more and the mammal field guide I had kept me crossing my fingers. I'd love to hit the magic 20 sometime if I make it back, miracles pending...! Perhaps with advent of the internet things are a lot easier to research.

Someone at the time bragged that they saw a marten in the New Forest once, and it had me wondering if it was possible. We used to drive by the "otter crossing" signs daily but no one had seen an otter at them in decades.

 

[Ted Y.]

Still, you should be able to ...

Looking at the map doesn't tell the whole story.

It is not easy to compare any European country with USA (or Canada) in terms of area or distances.
Not for me, at least. The solutions are different. The thinking can be different.
Just think about this movie title: If It's Tuesday, This Must Be Belgium

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Not at all. Glad to have you, more than welcome, hope you do pull a visit off some day.

It doesn't have to be a full time job at all. There's obviously people who enjoy twitching around Europe, build a team, get reps from each country, get the news flowing.

Because you're talking continent level rarities, you're actually not talking about a huge volume of information.

Like we have done, you can add filters. So you could add a filter for each country making the group more functional.

Give it a try. Build your own group in the app. Keep it private whilst you're at development stage, share it with a few contacts at first to see if it's of value.

Create a thread in the rare birds forum, with a poll asking if such a group would interest people?

Owen

Further to this, there is a draft Western Palearctic group available to test here.

Hey, join our 'Western Palearctic Rare Birds' group on BAND - The app for groups and communities!

'Western Palearctic Rare Birds' group invitation on BAND

A Rare Bird News Group For The Western Palearctic. Rare Bird News posted here should be rarities on a Western Palearctic Scale. Cover photo by Brian McCloskey

band.us

Based on a quick poll here it seems people think such a group would generally be useful. https://www.birdforum.net/threads/western-pal-rare-birds.432451/

Just a question of who would like to run it?

Owen

 

[Sangahyando]

Except these are national parks and reserves where collecting is not permitted. Granted, that doesn't stop people I'm sure, but it definitely discourages. And a lot of the good species are extirpated now from habitat or other factors, so I don't think even the notorious collectors visit anymore.

For the large part, based on what I am told, collection fear is not the issue. It's because they don't want people chasing or following up on sightings in general, usually because they believe most strongly in "find your own rarities" and don't like people following stuff up that isn't their own. I have heard that sentiment in the birding communities too, so it's not a new concept to me. I guess I'll abstain from deciding what I think of that opinion since it's fair enough.

I can get behind the conservation concerns, but "find your own rarities" is such an inane attitude. I'm guessing since birding is more mainstream than the other animal-watching hobbies, not only is the birding infrastructure more advanced, but the percentage of antisocial basket cases is probably lower in birding.

Mammals in the UK were kept mega quiet and secret when I was there (15~ years ago). Mammal-watching in the UK was one of the most fruitless ventures I had ever given time as a result. I used to do a lot of night walks in hope of finding rodents. In 4 years I finally hit 10 mammal species in the UK, but there were so many more and the mammal field guide I had kept me crossing my fingers. I'd love to hit the magic 20 sometime if I make it back, miracles pending...! Perhaps with advent of the internet things are a lot easier to research.

Someone at the time bragged that they saw a marten in the New Forest once, and it had me wondering if it was possible. We used to drive by the "otter crossing" signs daily but no one had seen an otter at them in decades.

To be fair, mammal-watching (beyond the usual five to ten species) in most of Europe is just super hard in general due to most of our mammals being paranoid and/or nocturnal. And there being fewer species of land mammal than on other continents. A significant amount of mammal species being fossorial doesn't help either.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

I'm pretty sure the percentage of basket cases in birding is higher than in any other hobby on the planet! 😂

Owen

 

[Farnboro John]

I can get behind the conservation concerns, but "find your own rarities" is such an inane attitude. I'm guessing since birding is more mainstream than the other animal-watching hobbies, not only is the birding infrastructure more advanced, but the percentage of antisocial basket cases is probably lower in birding.



To be fair, mammal-watching (beyond the usual five to ten species) in most of Europe is just super hard in general due to most of our mammals being paranoid and/or nocturnal. And there being fewer species of land mammal than on other continents. A significant amount of mammal species being fossorial doesn't help either.

I'm not a rabid mammal watcher (I think) but my European mammal list hit 100 with the Walrus at Tenby: yes I twitched it but so did a lot of non-birders! For UK it's in the upper seventies somewhere (but that I have worked on quite hard, especially once birds got into diminishing returns). Even just looking at big animals there is a good range of ungulates and carnivores to seek out along with several easy cetaceans, and by the time you get to "bats and rats" the numbers are massive, and even with a basic bat detector and a spotlight, not at all impossible.

I will admit the paranoia problem (although to be fair in a lot of cases someone IS out to get them.)

John

 

[Farnboro John]

I'm pretty sure the percentage of basket cases in birding is higher than in any other hobby on the planet! 😂

Owen

You must not have hung out with plane spotters!

John

 

[opisska]

Yes, mammalwatching is hard, that's the line we keep towards the general public in the fear that they would otherwise started doing it and it would become a mass madness like birding

In reality, there is a guided tour in Romania that shows you 50 mammal species on less than two weeks. It's not Africa, but Europe is actually surprisingly rich in mammals once you really start looking for them. Thermal cameras now cost as much as a cheaper telephoto lens, good lights cost nothing.

The main downside of mammalwatching is that there is very little twitching potential (except for walruses and maybe cetaceans in a generalized sense of it) because the mammals don't move that way. So once you have seen everything o the list, that's it you're done for ever. But on the bright side, exhausting the list is very difficult

 

[Helsinki Birder]

You must not have hung out with plane spotters!

John

I know of one birder in Ireland who thinks he's a wizard/sorcerer and casts spells in his garden shed...🤷

If your plane spotters can beat that...

Owen

 

[Mysticete]

Mammals in the UK were kept mega quiet and secret when I was there (15~ years ago). Mammal-watching in the UK was one of the most fruitless ventures I had ever given time as a result. I used to do a lot of night walks in hope of finding rodents. In 4 years I finally hit 10 mammal species in the UK, but there were so many more and the mammal field guide I had kept me crossing my fingers. I'd love to hit the magic 20 sometime if I make it back, miracles pending...! Perhaps with advent of the internet things are a lot easier to research.

Someone at the time bragged that they saw a marten in the New Forest once, and it had me wondering if it was possible. We used to drive by the "otter crossing" signs daily but no one had seen an otter at them in decades.

If you go back, consider trying to hook up with some folks on the forum here or on mammalwatching.com. Farnboro John was willing to take me out on my first visit to the UK, and we managed to get a ton of mammals (well, for UK a ton). I think in two short visits to the UK I managed 16 lifers, not counting stuff like European Rabbit, Gray Squirrel, and Norway Rat which I had seen elsewhere.

 

[Mysticete]

Except these are national parks and reserves where collecting is not permitted. Granted, that doesn't stop people I'm sure, but it definitely discourages. And a lot of the good species are extirpated now from habitat or other factors, so I don't think even the notorious collectors visit anymore.

For the large part, based on what I am told, collection fear is not the issue. It's because they don't want people chasing or following up on sightings in general, usually because they believe most strongly in "find your own rarities" and don't like people following stuff up that isn't their own. I have heard that sentiment in the birding communities too, so it's not a new concept to me. I guess I'll abstain from deciding what I think of that opinion since it's fair enough.

Fair enough...I am not interested enough in butterflies to really interact with that community. I have seen the same general attitudes in herpers however. Mammalwatchers however are much closer to birders I have found, and are more than happy to share information.

 

[Mysticete]

Yes, mammalwatching is hard, that's the line we keep towards the general public in the fear that they would otherwise started doing it and it would become a mass madness like birding

In reality, there is a guided tour in Romania that shows you 50 mammal species on less than two weeks. It's not Africa, but Europe is actually surprisingly rich in mammals once you really start looking for them. Thermal cameras now cost as much as a cheaper telephoto lens, good lights cost nothing.

The main downside of mammalwatching is that there is very little twitching potential (except for walruses and maybe cetaceans in a generalized sense of it) because the mammals don't move that way. So once you have seen everything o the list, that's it you're done for ever. But on the bright side, exhausting the list is very difficult

Although the counterpoint is that there are enough secretive or restricted distribution mammals that it will probably take a long time to complete seeing all possible species for a specific region. I am starting to get to diminishing returns for the USA on birds, as the number of places with more than one or two potential lifers, outside of Hawaii and Alaska, is dropping rapidly. In contrast, by my current count there are 36 squirrels alone I could target, most of them not being terribly difficult.

 

[Farnboro John]

If you go back, consider trying to hook up with some folks on the forum here or on mammalwatching.com. Farnboro John was willing to take me out on my first visit to the UK, and we managed to get a ton of mammals (well, for UK a ton). I think in two short visits to the UK I managed 16 lifers, not counting stuff like European Rabbit, Gray Squirrel, and Norway Rat which I had seen elsewhere.

We were very unlucky with Badger, as well. I'd expect to get several deer in a day (in my own county Roe, Fallow and Red are fairly nailed on and Muntjac is a good possibility) Red Foxes come for chicken every evening and I shouldn't have a problem finding Brown Hare, Bank Vole or Wood Mouse locally. In anything other than winter bats from Common and Soprano Pipistrelles to Daubenton's and Noctule are a fairly safe bet. Give me a couple of days and we'd have a trip over to South Wales for Bottlenose Dolphin and Harbour Porpoise, Common and Grey Seals, then Wild Boar on the way back.

John

 

[jurek]

Another + for mammalwatching.

I wonder when mammalologists will realize that they have lots to gain from amateur mammal watchers? Micromammals are terribly understudied. Even mid-sized and large mammals exist in many places as a sort of cryptozoological mysteries - were reported some time in the past, but continued presence and even rough numbers is unknown.

 

[Mysticete]

Another + for mammalwatching.

I wonder when mammalologists will realize that they have lots to gain from amateur mammal watchers? Micromammals are terribly understudied. Even mid-sized and large mammals exist in many places as a sort of cryptozoological mysteries - were reported some time in the past, but continued presence and even rough numbers is unknown.

Compared to birders or herpers we are still a tiny group. I'd guess there are easily more birders in a single good-sized US town than their are mammal-watchers in all of the US.