Here in Ontario Canada, we appear to have extremely widespread acceptance using the "discord" app. It is broken down into regions in which notifications can be adjusted as desired. Moderators handle different regions to keep things running smoothly. imo, it works very, very well. real time information, attachments, etc. Unfortunately, the problem of "elitism" is there, (suppressed sightings; always has been, and i suppose it always will...
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The "Balkanization" of rarity reporting (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mysticete
- Start date
Helsinki Birder
Stealth Birder
How many of those lists are visiting birders from other countries? How many are... what's the polite term here....randomers? Names you wouldn't recognize in the "birding community proper" for lack of a better term?
I haven't actually sat down to count, but I think there's maybe 30-40 names I'd recognise from Ireland using it. For a platform that had been on the go since 2002, 41000 checklists is, in my humble opinion, not massively impressive.
If we are conservative, let's say Irish birders have only been using it in the last ten years of smart phone availability, and all of those 41K lists are in that time period.
That's 4.1K lists a year. 1 birder, providing an average of 2 lists a week is 104 lists per year. That's 39 people providing lists to ebird. Of course, that won't be the precise breakdown, but as I said, factor in visitors to the country, and I think it's fair to say my statement that it has simply not been widely adopted holds up.
To be clear, I'm not knocking the site. It seems to be an excellent database, especially in other parts of the world, where coverage is intense, but for whatever reason, Ireland has not taken to it with much gusto.
As you said though, it's not a solution for instant rare bird notifications.
To be honest, the more I think about this issue of spread out bird news, the more I think it's a problem entirely entangled with the move towards cost free news.
Those countries which have centralised, paid services have damn near perfect systems, with high specificity of notifications based on status, region/area , or in the case of Finland as I mentioned, right down to the species level (i.e. you can select to be notified of individual species, in individual areas).
However, once you move away from that, to a culture of free news sharing, then you see more variation in news sources.
Some countries may never adopt a paid system. My personal view is that Ireland will never develop a culture of paid news again (we haven't had this since the end of dial-up birdlines). Indeed it would likely take a massive swell in numbers to make such a platform viable (though there are some semi-open source platforms which could do it), and to be honest an annual fee might actually prove to be detrimental to growth of the hobby there.
Owen
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Paul Chapman
Well-known member
On eBird, no idea what other recording systems are used in Ireland and how usage compares. Are there other widely adopted systems? Just interesting to see increasing use as someone who started using it several years ago & who finds it useful for personal recording and in trip planning in particular.
All the best
Paul
temmie
Well-known member
America... The land of the free!
So no structure, no system, only chaos
Maybe take a look at how things are done in e.g. the Netherlands and Belgium:
Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in Nederland - Dutch Bird Alerts (and: Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in België - Belgian Bird Alerts , which is largely a copy of the Dutch version).
So what are you getting:
1. a website with rare bird sightings, and if you click on them, you get all info.
2. an app, that pushes those sightings on your phone with a warning. Warnings can be custom-filtered (e.g. only lifers, only birds within a radius,...)
3. a ranking
So how do sightings end up on the site / app?
1. every subscriber can enter sightings. There is the common sense to only add rare birds, not scarce birds.
2. the moderators (all very active birders) trawl their resources (whatsapp, other platforms, phone calls coming from people without subsription
3. a lot of sightings come from Waarneming.nl which is the main platform for all species groups in the low lands. So whenever a rare bird is uploaded on waarneming, it comes ALWAYS with exact coordinates. So it's very easy to just forward the info to the dutchbirding site and app.
So this is how it works:
1. you pay for subscription (20 or 30 euro a year. It seems a lot, but how much does one failed twitch cost in petrol, and in bad memories?)
2. you are added to the Dutch birding telegram group. In this group, there is some extra info with regards to e.g. how to reach a certain site, where (not) to park, movements of the bird,....
3. you wait for a push...
4. you see the message in the app. With GPS coordinates. Click on the coordinates that automatically leads you to google maps, step in the car (or on the bike) and go.
How many times I see rare bird alerts in the USA on facebook, where you see 100ths of reactions under a picture asking where exactly is the bird...? When I see those alerts, I can only think the system to share info in the US is literally retarded.
And indeed, ebird doesn't help much. It only helps if people enter data in ebird with exact location. Ebird made some steps towards encouraging its users to be more specific with the entrance of data (and locations), but it's simply not designed for refinding a bird that has been seen by someone else.
I can only suggest to US birders to organize, see what system others are using, and e.g. get into contact with some of those platforms (like Dutch birding) and ask if there is a way to copy the platform for other countries. A lot of the IT stuff has been done (no need to reinvent the wheel), so go an try to buy / pick up a system that works, and be prepared to pay for it.
So no structure, no system, only chaos
Maybe take a look at how things are done in e.g. the Netherlands and Belgium:
Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in Nederland - Dutch Bird Alerts (and: Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in België - Belgian Bird Alerts , which is largely a copy of the Dutch version).
So what are you getting:
1. a website with rare bird sightings, and if you click on them, you get all info.
2. an app, that pushes those sightings on your phone with a warning. Warnings can be custom-filtered (e.g. only lifers, only birds within a radius,...)
3. a ranking
So how do sightings end up on the site / app?
1. every subscriber can enter sightings. There is the common sense to only add rare birds, not scarce birds.
2. the moderators (all very active birders) trawl their resources (whatsapp, other platforms, phone calls coming from people without subsription
3. a lot of sightings come from Waarneming.nl which is the main platform for all species groups in the low lands. So whenever a rare bird is uploaded on waarneming, it comes ALWAYS with exact coordinates. So it's very easy to just forward the info to the dutchbirding site and app.
So this is how it works:
1. you pay for subscription (20 or 30 euro a year. It seems a lot, but how much does one failed twitch cost in petrol, and in bad memories?)
2. you are added to the Dutch birding telegram group. In this group, there is some extra info with regards to e.g. how to reach a certain site, where (not) to park, movements of the bird,....
3. you wait for a push...
4. you see the message in the app. With GPS coordinates. Click on the coordinates that automatically leads you to google maps, step in the car (or on the bike) and go.
How many times I see rare bird alerts in the USA on facebook, where you see 100ths of reactions under a picture asking where exactly is the bird...? When I see those alerts, I can only think the system to share info in the US is literally retarded.
And indeed, ebird doesn't help much. It only helps if people enter data in ebird with exact location. Ebird made some steps towards encouraging its users to be more specific with the entrance of data (and locations), but it's simply not designed for refinding a bird that has been seen by someone else.
I can only suggest to US birders to organize, see what system others are using, and e.g. get into contact with some of those platforms (like Dutch birding) and ask if there is a way to copy the platform for other countries. A lot of the IT stuff has been done (no need to reinvent the wheel), so go an try to buy / pick up a system that works, and be prepared to pay for it.
Xenospiza
Distracted
It is absolute peanuts compared to what the Brits pay for their RBA.
Note that you pay double if you are not a Dutch Birding member.
Mike Crawley
Emeritus President at Burnage Rugby Club
30 euro for rare bird news seems pretty reasonable to me too !
temmie
Well-known member
how much do the Brits pay...?
The Dutch system sounds great and 30€ doesn't seem too much.America... The land of the free!
So no structure, no system, only chaos
Maybe take a look at how things are done in e.g. the Netherlands and Belgium:
Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in Nederland - Dutch Bird Alerts (and: Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in België - Belgian Bird Alerts , which is largely a copy of the Dutch version).
So what are you getting:
1. a website with rare bird sightings, and if you click on them, you get all info.
2. an app, that pushes those sightings on your phone with a warning. Warnings can be custom-filtered (e.g. only lifers, only birds within a radius,...)
3. a ranking
So how do sightings end up on the site / app?
1. every subscriber can enter sightings. There is the common sense to only add rare birds, not scarce birds.
2. the moderators (all very active birders) trawl their resources (whatsapp, other platforms, phone calls coming from people without subsription
3. a lot of sightings come from Waarneming.nl which is the main platform for all species groups in the low lands. So whenever a rare bird is uploaded on waarneming, it comes ALWAYS with exact coordinates. So it's very easy to just forward the info to the dutchbirding site and app.
So this is how it works:
1. you pay for subscription (20 or 30 euro a year. It seems a lot, but how much does one failed twitch cost in petrol, and in bad memories?)
2. you are added to the Dutch birding telegram group. In this group, there is some extra info with regards to e.g. how to reach a certain site, where (not) to park, movements of the bird,....
3. you wait for a push...
4. you see the message in the app. With GPS coordinates. Click on the coordinates that automatically leads you to google maps, step in the car (or on the bike) and go.
How many times I see rare bird alerts in the USA on facebook, where you see 100ths of reactions under a picture asking where exactly is the bird...? When I see those alerts, I can only think the system to share info in the US is literally retarded.
And indeed, ebird doesn't help much. It only helps if people enter data in ebird with exact location. Ebird made some steps towards encouraging its users to be more specific with the entrance of data (and locations), but it's simply not designed for refinding a bird that has been seen by someone else.
I can only suggest to US birders to organize, see what system others are using, and e.g. get into contact with some of those platforms (like Dutch birding) and ask if there is a way to copy the platform for other countries. A lot of the IT stuff has been done (no need to reinvent the wheel), so go an try to buy / pick up a system that works, and be prepared to pay for it.
I just don't understand the inclusion of Telegram as this is a second communication channel not everyone is willing to use which can result in some frustration as this leads to different levels of information available.
The following is a bit off topic but I think important to know:
Telegram is storing unencrypted user data and messages (encryption of chats needs to be manually activated for each chat and is not available for groups). I don't want to judge if Telegram not cooperating with law enforcement authorities is a plus or negative (it has it pros and cons and this is not the right place to discuss this topic) and even when ignoring that Telegram doesn't feel bound to European laws: from a pure technical data security standpoint Telegram is highly dubious at best. Your messages regarding birding are probably not problematic if they get leaked or Telegram decides to monetize user data but I think people have some false impression of Telegram being secure just because it's not passing data to law enforcement authorities. Basically you have to blindly trust an absolut intransparent company which is not necessarily worse than using Facebook/Whatsapp but something you should be aware of.
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Xenospiza
Distracted
Rare Bird Alert - RBA Pager Costs
RBA are the longest running instant birdnews service in the UK. Get birdnews on our app, pagers and website
www.rarebirdalert.co.uk
Conwy Birder
Well-known member
Do many people still actually use pagers nowadays? I use Birdguides which for £50 also gets you the mobile app that you can setup push notifications on, which basically acts the same as an instant pager alert.
Mysticete
Well-known member
America... The land of the free!
So no structure, no system, only chaos
Maybe take a look at how things are done in e.g. the Netherlands and Belgium:
Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in Nederland - Dutch Bird Alerts (and: Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in België - Belgian Bird Alerts , which is largely a copy of the Dutch version).
So what are you getting:
1. a website with rare bird sightings, and if you click on them, you get all info.
2. an app, that pushes those sightings on your phone with a warning. Warnings can be custom-filtered (e.g. only lifers, only birds within a radius,...)
3. a ranking
So how do sightings end up on the site / app?
1. every subscriber can enter sightings. There is the common sense to only add rare birds, not scarce birds.
2. the moderators (all very active birders) trawl their resources (whatsapp, other platforms, phone calls coming from people without subsription
3. a lot of sightings come from Waarneming.nl which is the main platform for all species groups in the low lands. So whenever a rare bird is uploaded on waarneming, it comes ALWAYS with exact coordinates. So it's very easy to just forward the info to the dutchbirding site and app.
So this is how it works:
1. you pay for subscription (20 or 30 euro a year. It seems a lot, but how much does one failed twitch cost in petrol, and in bad memories?)
2. you are added to the Dutch birding telegram group. In this group, there is some extra info with regards to e.g. how to reach a certain site, where (not) to park, movements of the bird,....
3. you wait for a push...
4. you see the message in the app. With GPS coordinates. Click on the coordinates that automatically leads you to google maps, step in the car (or on the bike) and go.
How many times I see rare bird alerts in the USA on facebook, where you see 100ths of reactions under a picture asking where exactly is the bird...? When I see those alerts, I can only think the system to share info in the US is literally retarded.
And indeed, ebird doesn't help much. It only helps if people enter data in ebird with exact location. Ebird made some steps towards encouraging its users to be more specific with the entrance of data (and locations), but it's simply not designed for refinding a bird that has been seen by someone else.
I can only suggest to US birders to organize, see what system others are using, and e.g. get into contact with some of those platforms (like Dutch birding) and ask if there is a way to copy the platform for other countries. A lot of the IT stuff has been done (no need to reinvent the wheel), so go an try to buy / pick up a system that works, and be prepared to pay for it.
It's worth pointing out that comparing Belgium to the US as a whole is apples to oranges, since you are comparing countries that in many cases are smaller than some of our states. It would be more equivalent to comparing All of Europe to the USA. My home state of Wisconsin is 4x the land area of the Netherlands and 5x the land area of Belgium, with scattered population centers separated by more rural zones. It's not a surprise that you could get everyone on board for a country that is fairly tiny, in the grand scheme of things!America... The land of the free!
So no structure, no system, only chaos
Maybe take a look at how things are done in e.g. the Netherlands and Belgium:
Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in Nederland - Dutch Bird Alerts (and: Overzicht van waarnemingen van zeldzame vogels in België - Belgian Bird Alerts , which is largely a copy of the Dutch version).
So what are you getting:
1. a website with rare bird sightings, and if you click on them, you get all info.
2. an app, that pushes those sightings on your phone with a warning. Warnings can be custom-filtered (e.g. only lifers, only birds within a radius,...)
3. a ranking
So how do sightings end up on the site / app?
1. every subscriber can enter sightings. There is the common sense to only add rare birds, not scarce birds.
2. the moderators (all very active birders) trawl their resources (whatsapp, other platforms, phone calls coming from people without subsription
3. a lot of sightings come from Waarneming.nl which is the main platform for all species groups in the low lands. So whenever a rare bird is uploaded on waarneming, it comes ALWAYS with exact coordinates. So it's very easy to just forward the info to the dutchbirding site and app.
So this is how it works:
1. you pay for subscription (20 or 30 euro a year. It seems a lot, but how much does one failed twitch cost in petrol, and in bad memories?)
2. you are added to the Dutch birding telegram group. In this group, there is some extra info with regards to e.g. how to reach a certain site, where (not) to park, movements of the bird,....
3. you wait for a push...
4. you see the message in the app. With GPS coordinates. Click on the coordinates that automatically leads you to google maps, step in the car (or on the bike) and go.
How many times I see rare bird alerts in the USA on facebook, where you see 100ths of reactions under a picture asking where exactly is the bird...? When I see those alerts, I can only think the system to share info in the US is literally retarded.
And indeed, ebird doesn't help much. It only helps if people enter data in ebird with exact location. Ebird made some steps towards encouraging its users to be more specific with the entrance of data (and locations), but it's simply not designed for refinding a bird that has been seen by someone else.
I can only suggest to US birders to organize, see what system others are using, and e.g. get into contact with some of those platforms (like Dutch birding) and ask if there is a way to copy the platform for other countries. A lot of the IT stuff has been done (no need to reinvent the wheel), so go an try to buy / pick up a system that works, and be prepared to pay for it.
FYI we do have a paid service, NARBA, but that focuses on ABA level rarities, not birds which might only be rare for your state or geographic area. So outside of the hardcore twitchers or people who live in border areas that regularly get ultra-rare birds, less useful.
temmie
Well-known member
With regards to Telegram, this is solely used for support, for example if someone wants to add some additional / updated info with regards to a sighting on the app.
Most messages are like:
"bird X is visible now"
"bird Y is accepted on the A-list"
"bird C has not been found yet this morning"
"is anyone still searching around the original discovery site?"
"bird hasn't been seen for some hours"
etcetera.
Mike Crawley
Emeritus President at Burnage Rugby Club
I've been using various incarnations of a pager since they were introduced by RBA, initially 4 of us shared the monthly cost (and usually the news !).
The apparent advantage that pagers retain over Apps. is that they don’t need much of a phone signal to receive a message. Messages do come through when the phone has no reception. It’s also pro-active in that it alerts you, rather than fumbling with your phone every X minutes to check for news.
WhatsApp needs some 4G (I think) but is limited anyway to local (county level usually) news.
Twitter and Facebook (where you have to be following the right people, who RBA and Birdguides are already following) need 4G as do Apps.
If you bird where 4G (or 5G) is available then you're a winner.
Pagers do seem to becoming the preserve of the "older birder" and it's difficult to see them having much of a future.
temmie
Well-known member
Still, you should be able to organize on a local (state) level. If e.g. some E-Coast states all agree to implement 1 system, and you have some moderators per state (preferably some of the most active birders), it could work the same way. If you have a tool to confine alerts to a certain state (and still have the option to get info from the neighboring states), it could work for both people that want a wider scale, and people that only are interested in a statewide (or other region) list.
Xenospiza
Distracted
Looking at the map doesn't tell the whole story.
Belgium has almost as many inhabitants as Ohio or twice as many as Wisconsin (11.5 million), divided over two languages.
The Netherlands (17.5 million) would fall in between Pennsylvania and New York. The Dutch Birding telegram group has over 500 members.
Helsinki Birder
Stealth Birder
I can't think of many apps in this context that "need" 4G. Speed of data download is of course desirable, but really only streaming services require high speeds for smooth service (Netflix etc).
The kind of apps in question here, WhatsApp, Band etc, really don't require much high speed data to push the average message through. (A big ,uncompressed video might buffer a bit).
Facebook can be a bit laggy but worked fine back in the day when we were all on 3G.
It is true however, that pagers use 2G (and older at times) as well as some satellite coverage, so can be more reliable in terms of coverage in remote areas, but that in and of itself is a rare problem these days.
It would also have none of the benefits of modern navigation tools, primary among which the ability to report birds with accurate GPS locations.
When I first moved to Finland I found the news sources all using accurate GPS and map systems for reports. It simply cannot be overstated just how useful this was to new birder in a country with one of the most difficult languages on the planet. 😉
So now I'm a convert. I look back at Ireland, and see the potential of using such a system, and how that might help birders just starting out who don't know where "Phil's back passage" or "Shite Lane" are.
Owen
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Mysticete
Well-known member
It's not about population size, its about distribution of birders. A small but densely populated region is going to have more interconnectivity in its birding community than a large state where the population is dispersed. In such a case, you might have concentrations of birders in one part of the state who don't really know the birders in another part of the state. I am sure the hardcore twitcherbase probably knows each other, but its often the locals who find the rarities, especially outside the urban areas.
Mysticete
Well-known member
I mean this is basically the route of the issue right here in the states. Every local region ends up creating there own facebook group/discord/whatever, and so if you want accurate coverage you have to A) Subscribe to a million things, some of which may not be well advertised; and B) filter out all the noise, as for every rare bird report there might be several posts on local cardinals.
Mike Crawley
Emeritus President at Burnage Rugby Club
.
Thanks Owen,
I assumed that the App. (RBA / Birdguides or whatever else there is ) would require plenty of "mobile Internet" coverage (what I have called 4G) to be effective.
I will ask my granddaughters to explain
raymie
Well-known member
The ABA has claimed that the purpose of their new social media site is to fix this issue - they hope that this platform will be the "one stop shop" - at least for the US and Canada.
They hope to fix the problem by... adding another place to check? Still an interesting idea though.
They hope to fix the problem by... adding another place to check? Still an interesting idea though.
