The best alpha level porros you can get right now are the Habicht 10x40 and the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50. If Swarovski would fix a few things on the Habichts and enlarge the line to include a 8x42, 10x50 and a 12x50 nobody would buy an NL and they wouldn't make as much profit because they could sell them for $1K.
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The Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 is the Big Aperture Habicht you have been dreaming about! (1 Viewer)
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That Habicht 7x42 GA is one bright sucker, isn't it? If the FOV was just a little wider I would still have mine. It is just that the WHOLE FOV is bright like it was lit up with a flashlight. I have never experienced that before in any of my binoculars!
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Top end porros are not/were not cheap: Zeiss West's old 8x30B Oberkochen porro cost more than the 8x30 Dialyt roof, and someone here inflation-adjusted the cost of Bushnell Rangemasters ... (Edit: I found it - US$153.90 in 1963, estimated at US$1,200 in 2015; the humble Swift #766 which cost around US$120 in 1962 was estimated at $957 in 2013). Those are not modern alpha prices, to be sure, but throw in multi-coating, waterproofing, long eye relief eyepieces (to make their specifications comparable) and I'd bet a porro with that performance/those specifications would end up at considerably more than half the price... unless it was made by a PRC company, which has its own issues.
With regard to the Fujinon 10x50 - optically good though it may be, anyone considering one needs to consider very carefully how they are going to manage a 1.5kg binocular, and whether the individual focusing will be a handicap. In some cases (tripod mounted for astro for instance) neither are an issue; in other situations they most definitely are.
NB. this thread should really be moved to the "Other" subforum where threads discussing Fujinon binoculars already are.
With regard to the Fujinon 10x50 - optically good though it may be, anyone considering one needs to consider very carefully how they are going to manage a 1.5kg binocular, and whether the individual focusing will be a handicap. In some cases (tripod mounted for astro for instance) neither are an issue; in other situations they most definitely are.
NB. this thread should really be moved to the "Other" subforum where threads discussing Fujinon binoculars already are.
Conndomat
United States of Europe
The Fujinon 10x50 FMTR-SX and the Swarovski EL 10x50 were just recently tested in 2018 for the EL and 2020 for the Fujinon using Allbinos latest methods. Gijs old transmission testing on the Fujinon was done way back in 2013 so I am sure Fujinon has updated their coatings since then.
Binoculars rankings - 10x50 - AllBinos.com
The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.www.allbinos.com
I'm sorry Dennis, if I click on the allbino's review list, does a test come from August 28, 2010?
I can only speak for my Fujinon, during the day and in the twilight it is a cloudy light against a Zeiss FL 10x56, against an EL 10x50 it is at best the same bright.
Fujinon advertised a transmission rate of 95% many years ago, that's not new!
I don't think Fujinon has changed anything on the optical system.
Here you can see how big the tolerance is with allbino's measuring process!
| Transmission | 92.9+/- 3% |
|---|
That means that a 10x50 can have just 96% transmission but only just under 90%!
I think it's more in the direction of estimated values, it has nothing to do with accuracy.
Andreas
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"I'm sorry Dennis, if I click on the allbino's review list, does a test come from August 28, 2010?"
The date the review was done is on the review under the picture of the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 picture.
www.allbinos.com
The transmission for the EL 10x50 is according to Allbinos.
Transmission 85.2+/-1%
That means the EL 10x50 can have just 84.2% which is still 6% lower than the Fujinon!
How old is you Fujinon FMTR-SX? I noticed the Fujinon was brighter than the EL especially in low light. Almost always a porro will have better light transmission than any roof due to the simplicity of the optical system with fewer lenses for the light to go through and get absorbed by. If you think the EL is brighter it could because of the areas of the spectrum the EL is transmitting the highest in.
"For the majority of the range in which our eyes are the most sensitive the transmission difference between both paths amounts to about 2%. It is a level imperceptible to naked eye so it cannot explain effects observed by our Reader. On the other hand, though, there are parts of the spectrum where differences reach 3-4%. These areas aren’t big but still we don’t think such an effect should be present in a very expensive pair of binoculars. In this class of equipment I would allow differences no bigger than 1-2%, so barely exceeding a level of our measuring error."
The date the review was done is on the review under the picture of the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 picture.
Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 - binoculars review - AllBinos.com
The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.
The transmission for the EL 10x50 is according to Allbinos.
Transmission 85.2+/-1%
That means the EL 10x50 can have just 84.2% which is still 6% lower than the Fujinon!
How old is you Fujinon FMTR-SX? I noticed the Fujinon was brighter than the EL especially in low light. Almost always a porro will have better light transmission than any roof due to the simplicity of the optical system with fewer lenses for the light to go through and get absorbed by. If you think the EL is brighter it could because of the areas of the spectrum the EL is transmitting the highest in.
"For the majority of the range in which our eyes are the most sensitive the transmission difference between both paths amounts to about 2%. It is a level imperceptible to naked eye so it cannot explain effects observed by our Reader. On the other hand, though, there are parts of the spectrum where differences reach 3-4%. These areas aren’t big but still we don’t think such an effect should be present in a very expensive pair of binoculars. In this class of equipment I would allow differences no bigger than 1-2%, so barely exceeding a level of our measuring error."
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dries1
Member
Looks like they had a bad EL sample to me when I read the review, or every binocular will have a difference in transmission for each tube, including the Fuji. I am sorry but I was not impressed with the Fujinon 10X50, a good glass for the boat and for astro but limited IMHO.
Andy W.
Andy W.
Conndomat
United States of Europe
Dennis, it's no use that you light a smoke candle!"I'm sorry Dennis, if I click on the allbino's review list, does a test come from August 28, 2010?"
The date the review was done is on the review under the picture of the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 picture.
Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 - binoculars review - AllBinos.com
The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.
The transmission for the EL 10x50 is according to Allbinos.
Transmission 85.2+/-1%
That means the EL 10x50 can have just 84.2% which is still 6% lower than the Fujinon!
You criticized that Gijs' measurements are from 2013, allbino's are even older!
It doesn't matter now whether the Fujinon supposedly has 6% more reflection than the Swaro, in the end the Fuji never has 95% transmission!
Where are indications that Fujinon has made changes to the optical system, please provide a clear link!
I have tested the Fujinon 10x50 with all imaginable glasses in terms of brightness, the glass is significantly darker than a Zeiss FL 10x56, even during the day, it has about the transmission of a Leica Ultravid 10x50, both glasses are on the same level, even the color matching is pretty much the same!
just because the glass has porro prisms doesn't mean that it is brighter than a roof edge, there are plenty of dark porros out there!
In addition, their fanatical belief in the results of allbino's ...
When in doubt, my own checks are more important to me than those of a review, allbino's may write some good reviews, but sometimes they are just IMHO totally wrong, especially when it comes to the older transmission measurements.
Andreas
Conndomat
United States of Europe
Hello Andy,
I agree!
I've had the Fuji 10x50 for many years, compared it to many binoculars during the day and at night, optically it just doesn't match an EL 10x50, zero chance, only the 3D effect is a bit more pronounced, otherwise I can't think of any area where the Fuji would be better.
A very solid glass for 800- 900 Euros, but not an EL.
Andreas
I bought it for astro use. I agree it is not a good birding glass. For the money I think it is the best hand held astro glass you can buy.
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Sorry, I trust Albinos more than I do your subjective opinions! How do you know Albinos transmission tests are inaccurate if you don't even know how they do them? Just because your subjective checks don't agree with their results. Until you do an objective test on transmission like Albinos does I would tend to disregard your opinion because everybody's eyes are different. If you say the Swarovski EL 10x50 is brighter than the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 show me objective proof rather than just your subjective opinion.
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Conndomat
United States of Europe
You don't have to trust my statements either, but I trust my observations more than the statements from Allbino's!
By the way, you still haven't sent a link where allbino's would have re-tested the Fujinon 10x50 after 2010, so these old approximate measurements are still up to date ?!
Testing binoculars yourself is better than a thousand nice words, you get an immediate impression, other opinions and tests are always just a "crutch"!
When in doubt, my eyes are the measure of all things ...
Some of allbino's results agree with my experience, others do not, so I am not as easy to influence as you are, the 95% transmission for the 10x50 is just ridiculous, especially since here each 3% percent can vary upwards and downwards, that makes 6% difference per glass, how is that? A lottery game, do I get the glass with 90 or 96% transmission?
Andreas
By the way, you still haven't sent a link where allbino's would have re-tested the Fujinon 10x50 after 2010, so these old approximate measurements are still up to date ?!
Testing binoculars yourself is better than a thousand nice words, you get an immediate impression, other opinions and tests are always just a "crutch"!
When in doubt, my eyes are the measure of all things ...
Some of allbino's results agree with my experience, others do not, so I am not as easy to influence as you are, the 95% transmission for the 10x50 is just ridiculous, especially since here each 3% percent can vary upwards and downwards, that makes 6% difference per glass, how is that? A lottery game, do I get the glass with 90 or 96% transmission?
Andreas
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Conndomat
United States of Europe
If you say the Swarovski EL 10x50 is brighter than the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 show me objective proof rather than just your subjective opinion.
see "Lichttransmissie"...
Andreas
Show me proof that these transmission tests are more accurate than Albinos.
From Cloudy Nights
"Fujinon FMT-SX - 10x50, 6.7°, er=13mm, IPD=57-76, close focus 50ft, lens fmc/prisms fmc,
None of these other binoculars come close to the performance of the Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50. When I find myself searching for a difficult object like M1 or M78, I pull out the Fujinon 10x50 to locate it. When I'm trying to see a faint star and need to confirm if it is at the location I suspect, I pull out the Fujinon to verify it. Contrast and light transmission in the Fujinon is immediately apparent as better than any other binocular in this group. The Fujinon has no aperture reduction. The field of view is a dramatic 6.7°, wider than any other 10x50 here, and in fact, wider than advertised. The field sharpness is truly sharp to the edge. It has the least overall aberrations and the least field curvature, yet it still has some decent apparent depth of field. It is by far the heaviest at 49oz. (1400g.) and has short eye relief of 13mm, but these seem a small price to pay for such excellence. Focus is precise and achieves pinpoint stars that are excellent. Limiting magnitude exceeds most of the other 10x50s by 0.3 to 0.5 magnitudes. Internal vignette is extremely well controlled, illumination is quite high and resolution ranks among the best. Let there be no doubt, these are all reasons why the Fujinon FMT-SX scored the highest of all binoculars out of 34 in this study, and you can see the difference the moment you put them up to your eyes!"
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Conndomat
United States of Europe
From Cloudy Nights...
"Fuji's transmission is best in the brochure, in real life they are not as quite as good. I had the FMT-SX 10x50 and enjoyed them, but they were outclassed by my Zeiss Victory FL 10x56 in day brightness, sharpness, ergonomics and enjoyability.
Similarly the EL 10x50 SV outclass the FMT-SX 10x50 and as a bonus they have a similarly flat and sharp field as the Fuji's and are even lighter and with better ergonomics than the Zeiss FL 10x56. For brightness, the FL 10x56 are still king of the hill."
The measurements from allbino's in 2010 for the Fujinon are worthless, if you have a difference of 6% above and below you can estimate better!
Gijs measured the Swarovski EL 10x50 in 2011 with 89% transmission during the day ... https://www.houseofoutdoor.com/test...te-Leica-Swarovski-en-Zeiss-november-2011.pdf ...the Fujinon 2013 only with 85% the day... https://www.houseofoutdoor.com/testrapporten/Test_Fujion_10x50_en-Nikon_7x50_en_10x70_april_2013.pdf ...
I think both glasses are at eye level in terms of brightness, I wrote that above, ultimately it is crucial that the Fujinon never has 95% transmission, because that was the initial question.
Andreas
Edit: "Let there be no doubt, these are all reasons why the Fujinon FMT-SX scored the highest of all binoculars out of 34 in this study, and you can see the difference the moment you put them up to your eyes!"
www.cloudynights.com
"From the Summary from my CN Report - Three Families
the Three Families report compared Nikon AEs, Nikon SEs and Fujinon FMTs."
"The eye relief of 13mm is short..."
What kind of nonsense is that ... 13mm. ???
Where is the direct comparison with a Swarovski EL 10x50?
"Fuji's transmission is best in the brochure, in real life they are not as quite as good. I had the FMT-SX 10x50 and enjoyed them, but they were outclassed by my Zeiss Victory FL 10x56 in day brightness, sharpness, ergonomics and enjoyability.
Similarly the EL 10x50 SV outclass the FMT-SX 10x50 and as a bonus they have a similarly flat and sharp field as the Fuji's and are even lighter and with better ergonomics than the Zeiss FL 10x56. For brightness, the FL 10x56 are still king of the hill."
The measurements from allbino's in 2010 for the Fujinon are worthless, if you have a difference of 6% above and below you can estimate better!
Gijs measured the Swarovski EL 10x50 in 2011 with 89% transmission during the day ... https://www.houseofoutdoor.com/test...te-Leica-Swarovski-en-Zeiss-november-2011.pdf ...the Fujinon 2013 only with 85% the day... https://www.houseofoutdoor.com/testrapporten/Test_Fujion_10x50_en-Nikon_7x50_en_10x70_april_2013.pdf ...
I think both glasses are at eye level in terms of brightness, I wrote that above, ultimately it is crucial that the Fujinon never has 95% transmission, because that was the initial question.
Andreas
Edit: "Let there be no doubt, these are all reasons why the Fujinon FMT-SX scored the highest of all binoculars out of 34 in this study, and you can see the difference the moment you put them up to your eyes!"
Dilema: Nikon 12x50SE or Fujinon 10x50 FMT-SX??? - Binoculars - Cloudy Nights
Page 1 of 2 - Dilema: Nikon 12x50SE or Fujinon 10x50 FMT-SX??? - posted in Binoculars: Which binocular would you rather have: the Nikon 12x50SE or the Fujinon 10x50 FMT-SX? Either would be mounted on a Bogen tripod. Astro observing only.Any experiences with either? Both?Thanks for your responses.
the Three Families report compared Nikon AEs, Nikon SEs and Fujinon FMTs."
"The eye relief of 13mm is short..."
What kind of nonsense is that ... 13mm. ???
Where is the direct comparison with a Swarovski EL 10x50?
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Sterngucker
Well-known member
A big reason the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 are brighter than the Swarovski EL 10x50 is the objectives are actually oversized for a 50 mm, whereas, the ELs are right on at 50 mm. Even if the EL did have a 3% higher transmission according to Gijs the aperture difference would make the Fujinon brighter. They talk about this a lot over at Cloudy Nights. The actual aperture size of the Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 is 51.09-51.11 mm but the Swarovski EL 10x50 is only 50.12-50-50.15 mm so if you figure out the difference in the actual area of the objective the Fujinon is binging in 5% more light making it brighter regardless of a few % difference in transmission. We know that aperture size is what makes the most difference when it comes to brightness.From Cloudy Nights...
"Fuji's transmission is best in the brochure, in real life they are not as quite as good. I had the FMT-SX 10x50 and enjoyed them, but they were outclassed by my Zeiss Victory FL 10x56 in day brightness, sharpness, ergonomics and enjoyability.
Similarly the EL 10x50 SV outclass the FMT-SX 10x50 and as a bonus they have a similarly flat and sharp field as the Fuji's and are even lighter and with better ergonomics than the Zeiss FL 10x56. For brightness, the FL 10x56 are still king of the hill."
The measurements from allbino's in 2010 for the Fujinon are worthless, if you have a difference of 6% above and below you can estimate better!
Gijs measured the Swarovski EL 10x50 in 2011 with 89% transmission during the day ... https://www.houseofoutdoor.com/test...te-Leica-Swarovski-en-Zeiss-november-2011.pdf ...the Fujinon 2013 only with 85% the day... https://www.houseofoutdoor.com/testrapporten/Test_Fujion_10x50_en-Nikon_7x50_en_10x70_april_2013.pdf ...
I think both glasses are at eye level in terms of brightness, I wrote that above, ultimately it is crucial that the Fujinon never has 95% transmission, because that was the initial question.
Andreas
Edit: "Let there be no doubt, these are all reasons why the Fujinon FMT-SX scored the highest of all binoculars out of 34 in this study, and you can see the difference the moment you put them up to your eyes!"
"From the Summary from my CN Report - Three FamiliesDilema: Nikon 12x50SE or Fujinon 10x50 FMT-SX??? - Binoculars - Cloudy Nights
Page 1 of 2 - Dilema: Nikon 12x50SE or Fujinon 10x50 FMT-SX??? - posted in Binoculars: Which binocular would you rather have: the Nikon 12x50SE or the Fujinon 10x50 FMT-SX? Either would be mounted on a Bogen tripod. Astro observing only.Any experiences with either? Both?Thanks for your responses.
the Three Families report compared Nikon AEs, Nikon SEs and Fujinon FMTs."
"The eye relief of 13mm is short..."
What kind of nonsense is that ... 13mm. ???
Where is the direct comparison with a Swarovski EL 10x50?
Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 - binoculars review - AllBinos.com
The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.
Swarovski EL 10x50 Swarovision - binoculars review - AllBinos.com
The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.
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CharleyBird
Well-known member
'The Fujinon FMTR-SX 10x50 is the Big Aperture Habicht you have been dreaming about!'
nope, but I would like to try these:
nope, but I would like to try these:
birdsandstars
Member
I've been using the fujinons for more than a decade as my main astronomical instrument. Ergonomically they are excellent, in comparison with the 10x50 swaro els I found the heavy barrels of the fujinons more pleasurable to hold and they produce a better stabilized hand held image. Sweeping the night sky with these bright, wide field light buckets induces a sort of non yearning tranquility that I use as a foil against the great shit show known as 2020.
In case of doubt, repeated measurements with other calibrated measuring instruments are the "measure of all things"!
The indication of measurement errors of a good (calibrated) measuring instrument is a necessary and common indication in the instruction manual and in specs for the correct selection of a measuring instrument and the correct evaluation/using of the results.
Scientific experiments with measurements include an error consideration (+/- X%) and this is certainly a less "lottery game" than your individual eye "measurements" with hopefully known and possibly unknown visual weakness (yellowing and moderate color weakness of eyes). Not because of your eye "measurements" but because of Gijs van Ginkel's deviating results (transmission curve) allbinos.com should repeat the measurement. A quick plausibility check of the results of transmission measurements by "brigtness" comparison of 2 binoculars and subsequent repeated measurements should have been done by Albbinos.com as a matter of course.
Many experienced observers agree that small differences in transmission cannot be perceived by the eye, at least not clearly. Especially since transmission curves are rarely "flat" and thus depend on the ambient illumination (sunny or gray days, twilight, night). Have you taken all this into account in your eye "measurements" and made an error analysis? Maybe the inside of your Fujinon is more unclean as others, invisible but light-effective?
Statistically striking are also your many disparaging posts about the Nikon Monarch HG 8x42 regarding high CA and edge blur (again without numbers, e.g. % of field of view radius) - in contrast to the number of reports of other members. Maybe there is something personal, a weakness, hypersensitivity, with which it is better to avoid too strict generalizations?
The strict assertions with obviously experimental-physical ignorance do not please me at all!
@Sterngucker, too bad I can only give 1 "Like" ... I want also popcorn and a popcorn eating picture.
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Conndomat
United States of Europe
Which has zero relevance for day observation!
With the same quality and transmission values, 10x30 binoculars are just as bright during the day as 10x50 binoculars, Roger Vine explicitly points this out in every review!
Incidentally, this also applies to the comparison between the Zeiss FL 10x56 and the Fujinon 10x50; the somewhat larger lens opening of the Zeiss has no effect on the brightness here either.
Andreas
