To Kill a Grackle (5 Viewers)

[A2GG]

oh those pesky birds...

I occasionally chat with a facebook friend from VA. who puts out seed in his yard to enjoy those songbirds he so likes to watch. Well, last night he sends me a message complaining of a flock of Grackles who come every so often to raid the suet and empty it within an hour. This can be understandably frustrating , as the Grackles prevent the woodpeckers from feeding when they take control of the feeders in such a way. So, what does my "friend" do about this matter? He kills a Grackle with a bb gun then hangs it from a tree branch and states ... "problem solved...I haven't seen any Grackles for a while". I was appalled. He has stated in the past that he shoots squirrells "in their rears" with the bb gun as well when they get on the feeders. Should I tell him that Grackles are a protected species or am I wasting my time? I have the feeling I will be wasting my time with this guy. He seems to really like birds , but then comes out of the blue with this horrific bird-abuse story which really put me off (time to de-friend?).

It got me thinking...here in the US I've had a few conversations with other bird-lovers who complain of House Sparrows and European Starlings dominating feeders and how these aggressive, 'invasive' and 'non-native' species are pests. At a nice wild bird store I used to frequent (until they closed last year) they had a contraption that was meant to catch House Sparrows and gas them ! I was horrified and asked the owner , a very nice man btw, about it and he basically went on how H.Sparrows are considered pests and almost made extinct our wonderful native Blue Birds. He made a strong point about competition between bird species, possible extinction and the fact that it was conservation efforts that brought the Blue Birds back from being a threatened species (via putting up bluebird boxes , the monitoring of them, etc.). However, I said to this man...ya know House Sparrows have been here in N. America for over a century now...shouldn't we just give them their citizenship at this point ? It was a joke, but also I was serious and he did not know how to take this. I just felt there has to be a better way than gassing House Sparrows. After all, we brought the Blue Birds back via conservation efforts.

Why do we consider some bird species 'pests' ? I can think of a few criteria based on conversations with people who label certain species as 'pests':

1. what is considered to be just 'too much' integration with humans; they're 'in the way'...for example, Gulls at McDonald's pooping all over cars and begging for french fries...Canada Geese pooping all over the place and 'ruining' corporate lawns.
2. any bird species who chase away from backyard feeders our 'preferred' birds (think 'cuter' or 'prettier' species).
3. There are just too many...they're everywhere...they are nesting in your house gutter, garage, etc.

I've never once complained of the above. I just like pretty much all birds and find them all interesting in their own way and accept the different ways species have evolved to exhibit certain behaviors and/or survival strategies.

There's got to be a better way ( a humane way ) to deal with what is considered 'pest' birds or 'bad' bird behavior. I do realize there are indeed humane strategies put into practice daily.

Does anyone have any thoughts to add to this issue...any unique perspective? I realize this will be somewhat controversial ... lets be polite
to one another please.

 

[A2GG]

wow...a lot of views and not one response. I'll add here to my original post since I'm not quite sure if it was sort of muddled and not clear enough.

There are protected (by the law) bird species and there are unprotected species. Let's take game-birds and birds we eat off the table here...I'm not talking about these species surrounding this topic. The Grackle I believe in NJ and most states in the US is a protected bird, so it's clear that my friend was wrong for what he did to that poor Grackle in his backyard. But, is it only wrong b/c he killed a protected bird? In the case of House Sparrows or Starlings (unprotected birds here in the US), is it wrong in your opinion to kill House Sparrows simply b/c people may feel they are taking food away from 'native' birds and posing a threat?
Does anyone feel a bit horrified as I do about the little 'gas houses' made to kill the House Sparrows? At what point do we get House Sparrows protected (as well as European Starlings)...they've been living here year round for many decades now. Or, do you feel their numbers are just so great that there's no reason to place legal protections on these species ?

What about Canada Geese posing a threat to airports? I believe there was a large killing a few years back of Canada Geese here in the US due to the dangers of these birds around the planes taking off...however this strategy of removal was very controversial. In this case however there is a threat to humans (not other birds). My thoughts and feelings aren't quite concrete in my mind, so I am throwing this topic out to you to discover other opinions and perspectives. I feel conflicted about some of this. The only thing I know is that I don't like the idea of humans killing birds for anything other than food (and we have chickens for that which is enough IMO).

If I get zero responses then I will at least know this is not a poplular topic and never to approach it again lol.

 

[Jos Stratford]

My take on this is a simple failure to understand how someone can get pleasure in feeding birds on the one hand, then seeming to rub hands in glee at the killing of species they don't like, be it the native grackles or squirrels.

If feeding birds means shooting any species which are too numerous and then hanging the bird aside the feeders, I'd say the guy is a bit warped, especially if the species is actually protected. And even more especially if they seem to get some sort of pleasure from it, boasting how they do it.

From a conservation or safety angle (birds at airports, etc), there may well be a good argument to have to cull certain species at certain times in certain areas, but I would hope it is a well-considered action, done with compassion and not simply from a "I don't like them hogging my feeder" mentality. Personally I would dump him from my Facebook friends (if I actually had any Facebook friends )

 

[A2GG]

My take on this is a simple failure to understand how someone can get pleasure in feeding birds on the one hand, then seeming to rub hands in glee at the killing of species they don't like, be it the native grackles or squirrels.

From a conservation or safety angle (birds at airports, etc), there may well be a good argument to have to cull certain species at certain times in certain areas, but I would hope it is a well-considered action, done with compasion and not simply from a "I don't like them hogging my feeder" mentality. Personally I would dump him from my Facebook friends (if I actually had any Facebook friends )

Thank you for your first paragraph...that's what I wanted to get across, but was not quite as articulate and to the point as you

The last paragraph...I feel similarly...there's no easy answer. I'd like to think that we are smart enough as a species to figure out someday how to remove the Geese (remove the threat to the planes) without having to kill them...but, I realize it's very tricky...about as tricky as trying to keep squirrels away from bird feeders

 

[A2GG]

oh and yes...I will stop talking to my 'friend'. He's got issues I'm just discovering.

 

[KC Foggin]

And my two cents,

First, Jos pretty much sums up my feelings on this.

Second and last, Once you decide to feed the birds, you can't discriminate as to what birds you will feed.

 

[A2GG]

And my two cents,

Second and last, Once you decide to feed the birds, you can't discriminate as to what birds you will feed.

yes, I've felt this way from the start. When I first started feeding birds a few years ago I had lots of House Sparrows and they were quite numerous and aggressive chasing away the goldfinches. Only the really sort of tough (or desperate) goldfinch individuals would stay put and peck back at the H. Sparrows. I tried to find a balance to make them all happy, but it was tough. I also didn't want to see any birds get hurt from fighting over the food. I finally settled on Nyjer seed after experimenting. The House Sparrows slowly went away and the Goldfinches and House Finches remained, as the House Sparrows don't like the Nyjer. There's a whole lot written here in the US about how to keep the House Sparrows away and some people are probably desperate enough (and evil enough IMO) to use those 'gas house' traps I mentioned in my original post. Some people here seem to absolutely hate Euro. Starlings and House Sparrows. Well, once I started hearing all of this about House Sparrows being undesirable and 'invasive' , 'non-native' and all that stuff I started to think that this seemed unfair and strange to pick and choose, as you've both pointed out. So, now I try to feed them all. I put a little something out in a different small feeder for the House Sparrows or whatever birds come along...it's gone in a second lol but I just enjoy any birds that come to the feeders. I live in a small apartment and have no land really to put the feeders , so it's all put in a small space under my picture window... a bath, two small feeders (one window) and a ground feeder for the Mourning Doves. I put food out sometimes for the numerous squirrels we have in the complex.

 

[NightCap]

It's unfortunate to run into this and I've encountered similar. I try to act a bit indifferent when really it galls me a bit but indifferent and coy so as to seem quizzical as to whether there are other solutions and yes, if the Grackles are a protected bird, do tell. Too, if you are only on the net, I can't know if someone is serious. Where I live we don't see grackles ordinarily but I did where I lived as a kid. I don't think they are bad, in fact, they have their own handsome nature.

 

[Socar MYLES]

Of course, this fellow is in the wrong, and terribly so, at that. If he doesn't want grackles about, there are plenty of ways to make his yard inhospitable or unattractive to them, without hurting them. He could use a grackle-inaccessible feeder, make annoying noises whenever grackles appear, use food they don't enjoy, et cetera.

Outdoor areas are not just for us to enjoy. Birds should be able to go about their little lives, too. It's on us to find subtle and harmless ways to reroute the ones we don't want, not on the birds to read our minds.

 

[Troubador]

This is a dilemma probably encountered everywhere in the world. We put out food and many are the times when a flock of 15 Greenfinches (we call them Greedfinches LOL) descend and nothing else gets a look in.

But Greenfinches are part of our neighbourhood. Their ssshhhrrreeeeeee 'song' makes us smile when we hear it in the distance and they are handsome birds with an interesting social organisation. So we put up with their hogging of the food as a price to pay for all the other species that visit.

Grey Squirrels also plunder our bird food and at this time of year the pregnant females are very persistent in feeding, they have to be to develop their offspring. A guy nearby shoots them with an air-rifle. We squirt them with water squeezed out of an empty plastic washing-up liquid bottle. They don't like it and run off. They have learned what happens when I open the window so most of the year I just open the window and off they go. It minimises their off-take of bird food.

We couldn't shoot them, they are here because mankind brought them here (as they did with House Sparrows) its not their fault and even if it was nothing deserves killing just because its a nuisance.

Just to jack this issue up a notch I will offer the totally impractical observation that if it could be enforced (it can't) I would make it a law that everyone had to eat anything they shot. All of it. Every time.

Lee

 

[NightCap]

This is a dilemma probably encountered everywhere in the world. We put out food and many are the times when a flock of 15 Greenfinches (we call them Greedfinches LOL) descend and nothing else gets a look in.

But Greenfinches are part of our neighbourhood. Their ssshhhrrreeeeeee 'song' makes us smile when we hear it in the distance and they are handsome birds with an interesting social organisation. So we put up with their hogging of the food as a price to pay for all the other species that visit.

Grey Squirrels also plunder our bird food and at this time of year the pregnant females are very persistent in feeding, they have to be to develop their offspring. A guy nearby shoots them with an air-rifle. We squirt them with water squeezed out of an empty plastic washing-up liquid bottle. They don't like it and run off. They have learned what happens when I open the window so most of the year I just open the window and off they go. It minimises their off-take of bird food.

We couldn't shoot them, they are here because mankind brought them here (as they did with House Sparrows) its not their fault and even if it was nothing deserves killing just because its a nuisance.

Just to jack this issue up a notch I will offer the totally impractical observation that if it could be enforced (it can't) I would make it a law that everyone had to eat anything they shot. All of it. Every time.

Lee

And actually, though I've never had it, I do know that people do eat grey squirrels. Chicken of the Forest it's been called.

And your last paragraph is interesting because.... maybe the article goes overboard for a lot of people, myself included, I can't but help concede that it still has some wisdom in it. This person who is a vegetarian said if we were forced to kill all the meat we eat, could we do it?? At that, I do think there is likely too much meat eaten in a lot of countries.

 

[A2GG]

Just to jack this issue up a notch I will offer the totally impractical observation that if it could be enforced (it can't) I would make it a law that everyone had to eat anything they shot. All of it. Every time.

Lee

that's a good one !

some people in the US do eat squirrels...I saw this once on a documentary focusing on native people living in Appalachian regions. I can't begrudge anyone who shoots legally and eats animals on their land especially when it's in their culture, for sustenance and/or survival and to save what little money they have.

But, I do agree that we eat too much meat in general...and kill too many species (how much is enough?). It goes beyond basic nourishment into plain ol' gluttony...I brought this up in a previous conservation thread.

 

[NightCap]

that's a good one !

some people in the US do eat squirrels...I saw this once on a documentary focusing on native people living in Appalachian regions. I can't begrudge anyone who shoots legally and eats animals on their land especially when it's in their culture, for sustenance and/or survival and to save what little money they have.

But, I do agree that we eat too much meat in general...and kill too many species (how much is enough?). It goes beyond basic nourishment into plain ol' gluttony...I brought this up in a previous conservation thread.

During the Victorian era and in error in hindsight, the grey squirrel was introduced in the UK. You probably already know this but it has pushed the UK native red squirrel out of its habitat among other contributing factors: http://www.overthegardengate.net/wildlife/squirrel.asp

But don't think eating squirrel is something reserved to the back woods of Appalachia:

It's low in fat, low in food miles and completely free range. In fact, some claim that Sciurus carolinensis - the grey squirrel - is about as ethical a dish as it is possible to serve on a dinner plate.

The grey squirrel, the American cousin of Britain's endangered red variety, is flying off the shelves faster than hunters can shoot them, with game butchers struggling to keep up with demand. 'We put it on the shelf and it sells. It can be a dozen squirrels a day - and they all go,' said David Simpson, the director of Kingsley Village shopping centre in Fraddon, Cornwall, whose game counter began selling grey squirrel meat two months ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/may/11/recipes.foodanddrink

I've even seen pictures of it, skinned and ready to sell. There is a lot to it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/articles/2008/03/03/squirrel_eating_feature.shtml

I guess, it doesn't actually taste too bad.

 

[A2GG]

But don't think eating squirrel is something reserved to the back woods of Appalachia:

I guess, it doesn't actually taste too bad.

Yes, I've heard lots of people from the UK complain of the Grey Squirrels and it's the same argument that people make in the US about the House Sparrows...they're 'not native' and they're 'pests'.

I have the same feeling here about this as Lee:

"We couldn't shoot them, they are here because mankind brought them here (as they did with House Sparrows) its not their fault and even if it was nothing deserves killing just because its a nuisance."

As for eating Grey Squirrels in the UK...Is this a relatively new thing? If so, then what you describe sounds like marketing a new variety of meat and that always brings me back to "how much is enough"(gluttony). How many animal species must we eat? My point with the Appalachians is that they were eating them more out of necessity it appeared (that was my impression)...these people are basically very poor (in the documentary). It provided a source of nutrition and is part of their longstanding culture.

 

[Socar MYLES]

It might be more humane to eat individuals culled from large/excessive wild animal populations than farm-raised stock, which tends to be kept in overcrowded conditions. But there would have to be some rules in place, to avoid overhunting. That's not to say I would go out and catch rats or squirrels for lunch, myself, but I suppose if they walked right into my kitchen, I MIGHT eat them...no, just kidding; I wouldn't do that. And there aren't any beasties in my kitchen! ;-)

 

[A2GG]

It might be more humane to eat individuals culled from large/excessive wild animal populations than farm-raised stock, which tends to be kept in overcrowded conditions. But there would have to be some rules in place, to avoid overhunting. That's not to say I would go out and catch rats or squirrels for lunch, myself, but I suppose if they walked right into my kitchen, I MIGHT eat them...no, just kidding; I wouldn't do that. And there aren't any beasties in my kitchen! ;-)

this is a good point. But, with 7 billion world population and counting we could make a wild population go extinct quickly if there became some sort of squirrel meat craze (or any other wild-caught meat) that exploded in popularity...we'd have to breed them to keep up with demand (back to where we were with chickens and cows). We ate all of the Passenger Pigeons in the world, but back then we also didn't have any hunting regulations in place. I just personally feel that we have a few sacrificial animal species that we primarily eat and adding more species to the list is excessive and even gluttonous. But, you make a good point about farm-stock and the inhumane conditions. We still obviously need to work on those conditions more and make it more humane. But, then there are people that feel eating any type of animal meat is ultimately inhumane.

 

[NightCap]

this is a good point. But, with 7 billion world population and counting we could make a wild population go extinct quickly if there became some sort of squirrel meat craze (or any other wild-caught meat) that exploded in popularity...we'd have to breed them to keep up with demand (back to where we were with chickens and cows). We ate all of the Passenger Pigeons in the world, but back then we also didn't have any hunting regulations in place. I just personally feel that we have a few sacrificial animal species that we primarily eat and adding more species to the list is excessive and even gluttonous. But, you make a good point about farm-stock and the inhumane conditions. We still obviously need to work on those conditions more and make it more humane. But, then there are people that feel eating any type of animal meat is ultimately inhumane.

This is all so... however, seeing how the Grey Squirrel has effected the tufted ear (like Great Horned Owl) English Red Squirrel, Grey Squirrels forage a lot on the ground clearly, English Red Squirrels stay up in the trees, so the Reds are just up against it, isn't there a humaneness in helping the Red Squirrel??

Now I'm no expert, and expert could tell you but I have read a fair amount on this.

The British red squirrel population is estimated at 160,000 75% of which are in Scotland.
The grey squirrel population is estimated at 3,300,000.
In England, Greys already outnumber Reds by more than 66:1.

(in the read more section)

http://www.overthegardengate.net/wildlife/squirrel.asp

Look how, at least in England, the grey squirrels are so numerous. So over there, I certainly would never want to see a squirrel killed for no reason, but if they are effecting the environment themselves in a non-positive way and if a human actually were to eat the meat, sorry, I don't see much wrong with that. In the same way, I know a vegan type in England, I found a website on wolves in England, they are trying to reintroduce them at least in the UK general but he really didn't care to see these meat eaters make a comeback.

Same thing with when Deer start to overpopulate, that's why one needs some carnivorous predators out there.

This is one thing I told someone who was upset at the grey squirrels and wanted to get rid of the ones in his yard, I figured actually, that if one did "eliminate" the ones in one's yard, you will just have others come, especially if you live near some wild terrain where they are breeding in the first place.

 

[Socar MYLES]

Maybe if we ate smaller numbers of a wider variety of species, it would actually be better for animals in general, because there wouldn't be as much need to breed anything specifically for food. A lot of people have a natural aversion to eating something like a squirrel or a rat, as these are looked on as unhygienic animals, but as long as they are safely killed and prepared, taking precautions against the microbes these wild animals can carry, I don't THINK there are any inherent risks that wouldn't be present with more traditional food animals.

There might also be less waste if smaller animals were common food items. I mean, how often do you end up throwing out leftover squab, after a few days in the fridge...? ;-)

 

[NightCap]

Maybe if we ate smaller numbers of a wider variety of species, it would actually be better for animals in general, because there wouldn't be as much need to breed anything specifically for food. A lot of people have a natural aversion to eating something like a squirrel or a rat, as these are looked on as unhygienic animals, but as long as they are safely killed and prepared, taking precautions against the microbes these wild animals can carry, I don't THINK there are any inherent risks that wouldn't be present with more traditional food animals.

There might also be less waste if smaller animals were common food items. I mean, how often do you end up throwing out leftover squab, after a few days in the fridge...? ;-)

Exactly, I don't know too, what the hierarchy of healthy meat is but there you go, red meat, etc. I heard buffalo meat, bison is healthier than cattle.

I'm a low meat eater and I have gone vegetarian for an extended amount of time.

I haven't eaten squirrel but I don't find that to be repugnant, I know squirrels don't seem much different than rats, squirrels have been called tree rats before but in general, I don't find the idea of "rat" too tantalizing. One of the articles above said in most cases a forest squirrel is just going to eat nuts and berrys, really not a bad diet. In that quite a bit different than rats and I suppose mice. Rats are probably eaten in some parts of the world.

One would just have to know how to fix the squirrel and yes, in America and probably in the hinterlands of somewhere like Canada too, people have prepared and eaten squirrel, don't think it's totally uncommon.

Gee, I was websearching earlier and Raccoons are even eaten and aren't suppose to be too bad, course, those I would leave alone too unless I really was hungry for some meat and out in the wilderness or something. Other wise, Raccoons like Squirrels can be destructive but I think Raccoons are rather sweet animals and yes, I've seen my share of them.

 

[NightCap]

Maybe if we ate smaller numbers of a wider variety of species, it would actually be better for animals in general, because there wouldn't be as much need to breed anything specifically for food. A lot of people have a natural aversion to eating something like a squirrel or a rat, as these are looked on as unhygienic animals, but as long as they are safely killed and prepared, taking precautions against the microbes these wild animals can carry, I don't THINK there are any inherent risks that wouldn't be present with more traditional food animals.

There might also be less waste if smaller animals were common food items. I mean, how often do you end up throwing out leftover squab, after a few days in the fridge...? ;-)

Per your remark "microbes" above, I know it sounds silly, I read quite a bit on squirrels, that.... the danger is, are you ready for this? Is to eat squirrel brains as if this would be a problem to watch out for but that is where to use caution:

Two Kentucky doctors last month reported a possible link between eating squirrel brains and the rare and deadly human variety of mad-cow disease, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

http://www.greysquirrel.net/brain.html

So, that sounds really strange, maybe there are precautions to take.

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I know this is off topic, apologies for that but there is a squirrel that has been around, somehow he lost his tail, at least the big furry part of the tail. I note a change in squirrels around here, one of the albinos got here but I haven't seen him around so perhaps a hawk or owl got him, those are the main predators from what I can tell. Grey squirrels seem to breed a lot. We have lots of crows in the area and I have read some threads on here that crows can be predatory but I have not seen this in my limited viewing, what I see are crows eating lots of garbage, carrion, anything, insects.

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http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/redsquirrellarge_tcm6-15924.jpg

The above link shows you the Red Squirrels in UK are different from North American ones. See how the UK Red Squirrels have the ear tufts.