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Tried out the TE-11WZ wide zoom on 883 (1 Viewer)

kabsetz

Well-known member
On Monday I tested the new Kowa TE-11WZ zoom on an 883 scope. It is not much bigger than the previous zoom, weighs 380g or about 55g more than the old version. I measured the eye-relief as 16mm/25x, 15mm/30x, 14mm/40x, 15mm/50x-60x. This is measured from the plane of the eyecup twisted in, not the eyelens glass surface, so is pretty well in accordance with Kowas specs. Quite easy to view, unusually low lateral ca, although I only assessed this subjectively by looking at color fringing of the coarse test patterns in the target when moved towards image periphery. Edge sharpness is not quite as phenomenal as in the ATX series, but easily good enough to be satisfying. Panning felt natural to me. Old zoom and new zoom, both set to nominal 30x and held side-by-side backwards in front of a fresh new snow snowbank in lightly cloudy, almost sunny light did not reveal visibly perceivable transmission or color balance differences between the zooms, so for all practical purposes the transmission should be identical to the old zoom. On the scope, the color bias is the familiar slight yellow tone that would begin to look natural in prolonged use, but is noticeable after the neutral-bluish Swarovski ATX 95 I now use as a reference.

I spent quite some time on the yard of the shop doing resolution distance tests (setting the scope to a distance from the target where the lines in all orientations are just becoming visible) between the Kowa and my ATX 95. This was obviously not so much for testing the zoom than testing the scopes themselves. All tests were done without a booster, to show differences in real field use. I used Jan Meijerink's resolution target, which has an ISO-like pattern of lines in four orientations. I used the fifth-smallest pattern, but even that one has the lines visibly thicker than the spaces, so it will give lower resolution readings than a perfect target would. There was a thin layer of new snow on the ground, and variable thin cloud coverage with occasional brief sunlight. I did not use the sunlight spells for setting the distances. Very little heat haze, but some at times, likewise with wind. This is a sample of the Kowa 883 that, at 60x, had shown pretty much flawless diffraction patterns indoors, with superb symmetry and no discernible astigmatism, coma or prism defects. The distance from which the target could be resolved with the 883 was 18.85m. For the most direct comparison I could think of, I used the Swaro ATX 95 as an "88" with an aperture mask and its zoom set to 60x that was earlier set with a booster to show the same number of millimeters at the same distance as the Kowa at maximum zoom. This setup resolved the pattern at 19.05m. I kept the Kowa in place on its own tripod for the entire period, so I could and did go back and forth between the scopes a lot to check that light had not changed too much and "resolved" would be similar between both scopes. ATX at 95mm with 60x mag resolved at 20.45m, ATX "88" at 72x at 20,65m and ATX 95 @ 72x at 21.75.

Looking at these figures with a calculator, the stopped-down ATX and 883 both at 60x were about 1% apart. This difference would be very small even as a sample difference between two identical scopes of the same make and model.
Looking at all the figures, it looks like I may have been less patient and more strict in determining the distance for the full magnification unstopped ATX, since the figures I get with that are a bit off from what they should be. I measured the distances only after having decided where to stop moving the scope, and there was definitely a thought in my mind that I should try to be conservative in determining the full-power full aperture distance at. Had I measured about 22m, the figures would look more consistent. As it stands, increasing aperture from 88 to 95mm for the 60x magnification increases resolution exactly as theory predicts (8%), and a little less for the 72x magnification. Increasing magnification from 60x to 72x increases resolution by 8.4% with the 88mm aperture mask, and 6.3% with full aperture, average of the two would be 7.4%. And the ATX at its full 95mm aperture and maximum magnification of about 72x gives it a 14% edge over this excellent specimen of the Kowa.

What this means is that had Kowa opted for an otherwise identical eyepiece but with 30-72x range, it would have effectively cut to half the resolving power advantage it yields to the big Swaro. Of course, these results are with my eyes only, but less sharp eyes would benefit from the extra magnification even more.

It also means that with this eyepiece, the Kowa 883 is for all practical purposes the equal of the ATX 85. Any differences in resolution are more likely to be sample based than design based, but given equally excellent samples, the 883 should resolve 3.5% better. This sounds like nothing, of course, but translates to a distance difference of 35 meters at one kilometer, which is not exactly nothing. Also, the ATX will have slightly better brightness, and has a slightly more neutral color cast. The brightness advantage of the stopped-down 60x ATX over the Kowa was visible, but not that substantial in this rather good light.

Kimmo
 
A characteristically excellent, thorough and helpful review. Thanks for going to the trouble to do this Kimmo.
 
Kimmo,

I have an old 20-60x zoom.
Do you advice to buy a new zoom? I understand that for field view there is not much difference, but what about picture quality?

Regards,
Mariusz
 
I measured the eye-relief as 16mm/25x, 15mm/30x, 14mm/40x, 15mm/50x-60x.

Thanks Kimmo for the detailed report. Are the eye relief figures you obtained more or less than what you obtained for the old Kowa zoom?

Also, I've heard a figure of 21% wider field of view for the new zoom. I'm not sure how this is measured, but is this consistent across the zoom range? Did you find the wider field of view a significant increase subjectively?

Jim
 
The field of view is quite a lot wider in the new zoom, and subjectively the image now feels wide at low magnifications and very wide at high magnifications. Kowa specifies 2.4-1.32 degrees = 42-23m/km for the new zoom, and 2.2-1.09 degrees = 38.4-19m/km for the old zoom. I did not measure the fields of view at different magnifications for the new zoom, but did check it against a Swarovski ATX 85 which is specified at almost identical 41-23 meters/km and has the same 25-60x magnification range. They were very similar, but the Kowa had a slightly wider field at 40-60x and slightly narrower at 25x. I did not do this bit of the work very rigorously, so would take these results as a little bit uncertain, but in any case they don't raise doubt about Kowa's published specs. In practice this means that at its minimum mag of 25x, the new zoom shows a wider real field than the old even at 20x, and is a match to the best 30x wide dedicated eyepieces.

Eye relief measurements I have made for the old zoom ranged from 16mm at 20x to 10mm at 40x, increasing back to 13mm at 60x, so the new zoom is much more even throughout the range and does not dip nearly as low. It should be much nicer with glasses on, but the maximum figure is no greater.

So, to answer Mariusz, it is just the opposite of what you say. The new zoom has significantly wider fields of view, but centerfield image quality with the old zoom was already as good as it could be with the 883, and it is just as good with the new zoom. Field edges I have not compared directly between the old and the new zoom, but the new zoom certainly looked very good even far off axis.

Whether you should buy the new zoom or not I cannot say. But I can say that I would enjoy using the 883 much more with the new zoom than with the old. The unusually stable eye relief means that positioning of the eye is easy and does not have to change much at all when you zoom in or out, and the wide field is very pleasant as well as shows more scenery and potentially more birds in a single view. For having such a wide field, it also seemed to have very little off-axis color fringing, so the image looks very pure. If the only drawbacks are not having the magnifications of 20-24x, weighing a bit more and costing a fair chunk of money, it is up to you to decide if it is worthwhile. But for anyone buying both a Kowa scope and an eyepiece, I think the new zoom is a much better choice.

Kimmo
 
Thanks very much for the excellent review, Kimmo. Very thorough, thoughtful and balanced as usual. I'm struck by the unusually shallow dip in eye relief at mid range magnifications. Have you measured the ATX zoom eye relief? If so, how goes it compare?

I just ran into this information on the zoom which shows the optical formula.

http://www.kowaproducts.com/Kowaeyepieces/KowaTE-11WZ25-60widezoomeyepiece/

Presumably the 2 "XD" elements contribute to the excellent lateral color you reported. I don't think I've ever seen a 4 element field group in a zoom before. Now I'm trying to figure out if I can adapt this zoom to my astronomical refractors.

Henry
 
Henry, you will need to make a 2" astro adapter as the bayonet is too big for standard 1.25" eyepiece holder.

FWIW, subjectively I prefer the ATX95 zoom. I feel the view to be more relaxed.

I am puzzled to read Kimmo seems OK with the ER measurements of the new eyepiece since it supposed to be a constant 17mm. Combined with the ultra wide AFoV at the higher mags I feel the eyepiece "forces me into it" as mag increases to get the most from the wide angle view. And the fieldstop goes fuzzy from about 40x on. Other than that, it seems optically the same as the old 20-60x with good edge performance and little distortion.
 
Rick, Henry,

The eye relief measures for the ATX 95 were 16mm/30x, 13mm/40x-60x, 14mm/70x, so pretty similar but more of a dip at middle zoom range.

Yes, the new zoom is supposed to have constant eye-relief throughout the zoom range, but then again, if you look at the Kowa link in Henry's post, the old zoom is supposed to have an eye-relief of 17-16.5mm which it clearly doesn't have. Eye-relief specifications are among the least reliable specifications in all scopes, and what I measured for the new Kowa is actually much better in accordance with what is advertised than have been the E-R results for any other zoom measured before. If you want to see a second set of measurements, Jan Meijerink at Twentse has measured the eye-reliefs of the ATX series and the old Kowa zoom, as well as many others. Comparing these to manufacturer specs is informative. However, I will admit that something does not quite jive with the eye-relief and field of view data, since the eye lens diameter in the TE-11WZ is a couple of millimeters smaller than in the ATX, and this should mean that the latter either has a wider field or more eye-relief, at least at some magnification.

I'll see if I can do a bit more testing with the zoom today.

Kimmo
 
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The shop still had the zoom, so I set up a tripod 10m from a measuring tape taped on a window to determine real fields of view. The number of centimeters that is visible within the field stop at each magnification corresponds to meters at one kilometer, assuming that magnification remains the same from 10m-1km. In telescopes that focus by moving the eyepiece towards/away from the objective lens, magnification increases at shorter focus distances, but I'm not sure this happens with telescopes that focus with a moveable doublet between the objective and the prism, like in most of the modern spotting scopes including the two here. In any case, with these modern telescope designs, I have usually measured fields of view in cm/10m that so closely correspond to the specified m/km figures that I rather tend to think the magnification stays pretty constant in them. And, if there is an error, it should be in the direction of too narrow a reading rather than too wide.

Kowa specification for the TE-11WZ is 42m/km at 25x and 23m/km at 60x, with no data given for the intermediate magnifications.

Measured fields: Kowa 883: 41cm/25x, 37.7cm/30x, 32.0cm/40x, 28.5cm/50x, 24.2cm/60x

Measured fields: ATX 85: 41cm/25x, 36,3cm/30x, 30.1cm/40x, 25.9cm/50x, 22.6cm/60x

The measurements for the Swarovski ATX 85 are exactly as specified for 25x, and 0.4cm short for 60x. Intermediate magnifications were set according to Swarovski's markings on the scope body, set so the arrowhead points to the markings the same way as they did for the 25x setting, but there is a definite possibility of some setting error here.

For the Kowa 883, the 25x measurement is one cm less than specified, but for 60x it is 1.2cm wider. All the intermediate setting fields are also a bit wider for the Kowa. The Kowa eyepiece has markings that make it very easy to set the magnification exactly to the intermediate marks, but whether or not those are exactly at the supposed magnification I did not check.

The wide field of view at very high magnifications is not so straightforward in the Kowa, however. The entire 24.2cm was not visible without moving one's eye a bit from the axial exit pupil position, so it is possible that Kowa's specification refers to the field that can be seen "without looking around the corners." This might also explain the apparent inconsistency between Rick's experience of "being forced into" the view when zooming up, as well as the fuzzy field stop, and the eye-relief measurements that remain relatively constant. Perhaps one needs to move the eye closer than the proper eye-relief distance in order to see the (over)full field at 60x and close to it. It was rather difficult if not impossible to estimate what the 60x field "without looking around the corners" really is, but it seemed to be close to if not over 23.5cm, which is still a little over Kowa's spec. If I did not try to see the extreme edges of the field and just simply kept my eye at the same position while zooming up, the image felt quite natural and relaxed and looking at most of the field was easy.

I also did some rather quick and crude edge of field resolution tests. Focusing with the target centered, it was still possible to resolve between two thirds and half of the centerfield resolution when the target was situated in the outermost 10% of the field of view. The edge resolution is therefore just about the same as in the Swaro ATX, not really any worse as I had initially thought.

Since the window against which I had the tape measure was outdoors in the sun, and behind the outermost pane there was a semi-closed aluminum venetian blind, I had a nice informal CA test consisting of the parallel edges of the slats in the blind. Looking at this through both the Kowa and the ATX verified that there is markedly less lateral chromatic aberration in the TE-11Z.

Lastly, I agree with Rick about the ATX zoom subjectively feeling more relaxed. However, I have now been using an ATX almost daily for about a month, so I'm already accustomed to it and therefore not the best person to asses whether the Kowa that I tried for the first time last Friday is equally natural and relaxed. Another aspect that was more relaxing in the ATX scopes is focusing. The Kowa 883 has a two-part focus knob with both fast and slow gear ratios, but their "slow" is quite a bit too fast to my tastes, and acquiring perfect focus always required more fiddling back and forth than with the large, smoothly moving and slow ratio focus ring of the ATX.

Kimmo
 
Kimmo,

I really appreciate your review here. I also have the ATX (85 module) and the TE-11WZ on the Kowa 880, and I am seeing things the same way as you. Particularly the "looking around the edges" comment. The ATX doesn't require it for the full FOV, while the Kowa does.

Also on the CA, it seems where it is visible on the ATX, it is visible on the Kowa, but the magnitude of CA is noticeably less on the Kowa. It does seem the Kowa eyepiece is remarkably well corrected for CA in a spotting scope.

Both scopes and eyepieces show MUCH less CA and distortion than the Diascope 85tFL w/ 20-75.

Thanks for posting this, and I look forward to hearing more.
 
Kimmo,

Thanks for the review and all info.

I'm interested in a detail: - when zooming the scope side lens move longitudinally or there is only an internal lens movement?

Also, although only a 2x zoom, how compares the Leica zoom to the TE-11WZ in terms of eye-relief and AFOV? I was thinking of trying to adapt a Leica zoom to my Optolyth 100 (using a 1.6x barlow cell, to reach focus...), but now I'm considering also the TE-11WZ...
 
David,

The TE-11WZ eye-relief was between 14-16mm in my measurements. The Leica 25-50x zoom I had measured at 16-19mm. My recollection is that all lens movement is internal.

Both zooms are some of the very best I have ever viewed with, but I prefer a wider zoom range. Also, the Kowa has the lowest lateral CA I have seen in a scope, while the Leica had some of the most pronounced lateral CA among premium scopes I have tested - the only real drawback in that eyepiece.

Hope this helps.

Kimmo
 
Thanks Kimmo,
I have to do a test to the Leica.
At the time I briefly used one in my astro-telescope I did it more for curiosity (resulted in a 7x zoom with the Nikon FSA-L2 - post #12 at http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=175297) and didn't had time to test it properly - don't remember lateral CA and but think the eye-relief couldn't be enough for my eye-glasses at higher magnification. Hope one of this days I will have a chance to use it again and the idea is to test it as I should before but hadn't time.
It will be more difficult to test the new Kowa since don't know any one with it in Portugal...
 
David,

I took another look at the TE-11WZ. There is indeed some movement of the scope side lens when you zoom. The lens stays inside the bayonet collar throughout the movement range, and the movement was rather small, perhaps only some 5mm between extremes.

Kimmo
 
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