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Who To Believe? (1 Viewer)

Anthony Morton said:
Reams of factual evidence have been put forward, all supporting the accepted view but NOBODY seemed either prepared or able to address the merits (or otherwise!) of the one paper I had referred to. Even more interesting, perhaps, is that several of this paper's authors are well respected ecologists with numerous other papers to their credit all expressing the accepted view. So have these people perhaps changed their opinions, been misquoted, their findings taken ouit of context - or what?

Anthony, unless my memory is failing (and having reached the point of banging my head against a brick wall it's a possibility) I'm sure I recall addressing the quoted paper and pointing out that it doesn't address population decline as the article in The Field seemed to be implying. I'm also fquite sure that Ian has also addressed this issue, and think Jane might have pointed this out as well.

Yes it does appear that for some reason the authors of the article in The Field and The Game Trust were taking their findings out of context. I can't imagine why they would do that, can you?

Regards Richard
 
Ian Peters said:
Hi Richard,

I have been trying to explain this point for the last few days but I feel like I am banging my head against a wall now. It is clear that BF is infested with one or two people that have absolutely no interest in birdwatching. They may have a passing interest in birds and wildlife (mostly to kill it I suspect but that is not the point) and their sole reason for being here is to agitate. As John intimated, the thread title was a total blind for presenting certain opinions that have nothing to do with birding. The thread ran a familiar course with Jane and Anthony swatting each other with personal comments yesterday and ME bringing up the fluffy bunny point again. It would be funny if I had not predicted all this privately to Jane, Steve and oceans. So bets down for the next prediction. I said during the cormorant debate that it was the thin end of the wedge so I am now waiting for the debate on sawbills and herons. Why be selective? We have heard the so-called case against peregrines and sparrowhawks so what about merlins, hobbies, great spotted woodpeckers, weasels and stoats, badgers, squirrels and hedgehogs?

Ian

Ian,

As with most of your contributions to BF, I'm having trouble trying to work out whether they are fish or fowl - if you'll excuse the unintentional pun. For example, are you presenting entirely your own views, or are they those of the RSPB? Either way, it's beginning to look as though they are being
coloured by some form of persecution complex.

Can I also say that no matter who they are, "one or two people" hardly constitutes the infestation you seem to be implying. And any suggestion that the title of MY thread is a blind to obscure ulterior motives is completely and utterly false. I do wish that certain people would restrict themselves to what I have actually written and not add 'spin' just to suit their own ends. Even more to the point, those who you should perhaps be addressing your remarks to are the 'spoilers' whose sole aim appears to be the disruption of other people's threads for reasons best known to themselves. I'm not so sure that I
altogether approve of your habit of publicly naming anyone who disagrees with your point of view either.

Now I'm not a gambling man - unless it's a dead cert - but if I were you I certainly wouldn't put any money on there being a debate about the predation caused by sawbills and herons. This seems to me to be a figment of your imagination. As for the various other species you mention, only time will tell I suppose!

Anthony
 
Richard D said:
Anthony, unless my memory is failing (and having reached the point of banging my head against a brick wall it's a possibility) I'm sure I recall addressing the quoted paper and pointing out that it doesn't address population decline as the article in The Field seemed to be implying. I'm also fquite sure that Ian has also addressed this issue, and think Jane might have pointed this out as well.

i have also mentioned it, so Anthony's 'NOBODY' is quite clearly untrue. Either he is not bothering to read these posts, or he's being deliberately dishonest.
Whichever, I have to say i think this thread has reached something of a dead end.
It's been established quite conclusively that there is a massive body of scientific evidence which refutes the idea that magpie predation has caused population decline in songbirds, with only Alan's suggestion of a couple of papers arguing the other case. It's also been pointed out numerous times that the research quoted in 'the field' does not contradict the established ideas, and that it was a mistake on the part of the game conservancy trust and the magazine to say that it did.
So this issue basically comes down to whether or not you think scientific study is the best way to uncover the basic truths of ecology. If you do, then the issue is clear cut, if you don't then no amount of scientific data is ever going to shift you from your position.
 
Anthony Morton said:
Ian,

As with most of your contributions to BF, I'm having trouble trying to work out whether they are fish or fowl - if you'll excuse the unintentional pun. For example, are you presenting entirely your own views, or are they those of the RSPB? Either way, it's beginning to look as though they are being
coloured by some form of persecution complex.

Anthony

For goodness sake man, do you always have tiresomely resort to personal comments? I recognise that you did not enter into comment about the paper but that is just flowery debating language because you included the words "this seemingly goes at odds with other research on the subject". Can you honestly say that this does not infer that you were introducing the subject from an agenda-led point of view? My debating position is not an issue unless you are openly admitting that it is the debate and not the subject that is important. I have tried my best to be a lot more patient with you than I need to be but I will be honest, that is wearing thin now. So what is it going to be Anthony? Are you admitting that you are here for a good argument (shades of Monty Python) or are you genuinely interested in considering both sides of the issues you introduce?

Ian
 
This sort of thing has happened on every single internet forum I have ever belonged to. There are definitely people here who aren't interested in reasoned debate/have their own agenda/are only hear to wind others up. There's no point in trying to reason with them and the sooner they are ignored, the sooner they'll go away.
 
marek_walford said:
There are definitely people here who aren't interested in reasoned debate/have their own agenda/are only hear to wind others up. There's no point in trying to reason with them and the sooner they are ignored, the sooner they'll go away.




Do not feed the trolls?




Andy.
 
Ian Peters said:
For goodness sake man, do you always have tiresomely resort to personal comments?

No at all, but like you I also get rather annoyed when I see my name cropping up in your postings - especially the ones not addressed to me. If you don't like it, there's a very easy way to prevent it as I'm sure you know!


I recognise that you did not enter into comment about the paper but that is just flowery debating language because you included the words "this seemingly goes at odds with other research on the subject". Can you honestly say that this does not infer that you were introducing the subject from an agenda-led point of view?

No Ian, the reason I didn't enter into the debate about the paper entitled "Large-scale spatial variation in the breeding performance of song thrushes (Turdus philomelos) and blackbirds (T merula) in Britain" was for the simple reason that I hadn't read it - so how could I? However, I hoped that someone on BF might have read it and perhaps be able to enlighten me (and anyone else who might be interested) about its contents and implications. I will repeat that I had only seen a brief extract from the paper which was quoted in the article "If You Want Songbirds, Kill Magpies", which I have read.

Once again you are sadly also casting doubt upon my honesty by your wholly incorrect accusation that my reference to the article and paper in question was not agenda-led. All I was hoping for was an explanation.



My debating position is not an issue unless you are openly admitting that it is the debate and not the subject that is important. I have tried my best to be a lot more patient with you than I need to be but I will be honest, that is wearing thin now.


What ever! And don't worry about me - cut up rough whenever you feel like it.


So what is it going to be Anthony? Are you admitting that you are here for a good argument (shades of Monty Python) or are you genuinely interested in considering both sides of the issues you introduce?

Ian

Not trying to put words into my mouth AGAIN Ian, surely? And how can I (or anyone else) consider both sides of the issue when genuine requests for information are met with such rudeness and hostility. Try reading some of the postings on this thread again and then tell me if, in your honest opinion, they reflect the thoughts and opinions you would expect from supposedly educated people.

I'm beginning to realise how the bloke who stood in front of the Flat Earth Society and told them the world was round must have felt!

Anthony
 
Anthony Morton said:
No at all, but like you I also get rather annoyed when I see my name cropping up in your postings - especially the ones not addressed to me. If you don't like it, there's a very easy way to prevent it as I'm sure you know!

So, you are down to moderating who contributes to BF or any of your discussions. Note to Steve: sorry mate but this does not look good!


Anthony Morton said:
No Ian, the reason I didn't enter into the debate about the paper entitled "Large-scale spatial variation in the breeding performance of song thrushes (Turdus philomelos) and blackbirds (T merula) in Britain" was for the simple reason that I hadn't read it - so how could I? However, I hoped that someone on BF might have read it and perhaps be able to enlighten me (and anyone else who might be interested) about its contents and implications. I will repeat that I had only seen a brief extract from the paper which was quoted in the article "If You Want Songbirds, Kill Magpies", which I have read.

Unbelievable admission, but how can you blame anyone for doubting your reason for even broaching the subject.

Anthony Morton said:
Once again you are sadly also casting doubt upon my honesty by your wholly incorrect accusation that my reference to the article and paper in question was not agenda-led. All I was hoping for was an explanation.

Well fair enough, it would have been nice if you had acknowledged the efforts made to answer your question in stead of repeating the point about the paper contradicting other research.

Anthony Morton said:
Not trying to put words into my mouth AGAIN Ian, surely? And how can I (or anyone else) consider both sides of the issue when genuine requests for information are met with such rudeness and hostility. Try reading some of the postings on this thread again and then tell me if, in your honest opinion, they reflect the thoughts and opinions you would expect from supposedly educated people.

Damned by your own words again Anthony. There was no rudeness until you chose to ignore 2 or 3 days work that people put in answering your question. It is only when the thread descends into dispute that you ever bother coming back into the debate, which is flaming by any other name.

Anthony Morton said:
I'm beginning to realise how the bloke who stood in front of the Flat Earth Society and told them the world was round must have felt!

Anthony

Me too, this is like debating evolution with a Young Earth Creationist.
 
Anthony Morton said:
And how can I (or anyone else) consider both sides of the issue when genuine requests for information are met with such rudeness and hostility.

Anthony,
when your genuine requests for information are met with that self-same information, don't you think it's a bit rude to pretend you're being ignored?
And can you please give it a rest with the hard-done-by act. You're one of the most aggressive debaters on this forum yet you constantly cry foul whenever anyone responds in kind.
James
 
All the following are comments by Anthony in chronological order:

These appear to be two opposing views. On one hand the evidence is based purely on first-hand personal experience, and on the other the scientifically-backed results obtained from previous studies. Which one is correct?
#1

'The Game Conservancy Trust comments that the result "comes as somewhat of a surprise, since the BTO and the RSPB have loudly proclaimed a 'not guilty' verdict for these corvids in relation to songbird declines. At Loddington we have seen a spectacular increase in song thrush breeding density which followed hard on the heels of improved nesting success brought about by crow and magpie control."
#29

I think you'll find that there aren't two separate papers and that the scientific paper referred to in the article I quoted from is indeed the one prepared by the BTO/UEA. At face value, this does seem to contradict the accepted science on magpie predation and was prepared by a number of highly respected individuals in the field of ornithology.
#57

Good grief, talk about trying to blind people with science. Yet at the end of it all I'm still not overly impressed, because each of the various authors quoted only gives their personal version of what's already happened. Not one of them offers any suggestion as to what needs to be done to put matters right to reverse the decline in songbird numbers.
#81

Well at least we can agree on part of this comment, for listening to (or rather reading) the comments of some of BF's more talented members discussing how or why the authors of this one paper had arrived at a conclusion which differs so much from the norm was EXACTLY what I was hoping for.
#101

Reams of factual evidence have been put forward, all supporting the accepted view but NOBODY seemed either prepared or able to address the merits (or otherwise!) of the one paper I had referred to. Even more interesting, perhaps, is that several of this paper's authors are well respected ecologists with numerous other papers to their credit all expressing the accepted view. So have these people perhaps changed their opinions, been misquoted, their findings taken ouit of context - or what?
#142

In addition, Anthony mentioned me by name in the very first post so isn't playing the victim a little disingenious?

Ian
 
I have an analagous situation which may help to explain the scepticism some of us feel towards the scientific papers which now adorn this thread in some abundance.

For hundreds of years, people throughout the length and breadth of Britain have realised that if they go outside with wet hair or wet clothes, they are quite likely to get a chill and catch a cold. I myself had to painfully re-learn this familiar lesson recently.

However, scientists, doctors and medical experts have long told us that this is a myth. "Colds are caused by a virus" they say, "not by getting a chill outside. The "getting a chill" theory is a myth/fairytale/old wives' tale/untruth/cuddly toy/electric toaster/etc. etc. etc." they claim.

I have heard and seen many such arguments from the scientists and experts. Indeed (and Ian, this is for you so you don't try and make swipes about Strawmen arguments), I read one from a medical expert in a newspaper article just two weeks ago.

The problem is, many of us know that going outside with wet hair or wet clothes does indeed often lead to getting a cold - no matter how many scientific/"expert" opinions tell us otherwise.

I'm sure I don't need to labour the analogy, but suffice to say that this is how many of us round the country have found the whole Magpie/Song Birds situation to be.

And then interestingly, it turns out that there is a very good factual/scientific reason for why going out with wet clothes/hair causes colds - despite all those experts saying there is no link.

It turns out that the cold virus can be dormant in many people until activated by sudden changes in temperature - such as going out with wet hair, or wet socks, which causes the body temperature to drop [head and feet are particularly temperature sensitive] and the virus to be activated.

So, bascially, all those scientific and "expert" studies were wrong. And what was it that sustained those of us who knew from experience they were wrong, until factual back-up came our way? Why, personal experience.

Ditto [and I'm sure you had a cunning clue as to where I was heading with this] the personal experience of many that large numbers of Magpies locally often means sharply decreased numbers of song birds, and the removing of Magpies often leads to recovery of song bird populations.

And there is some evidence to back this up, including the two studies I have now mentioned several times [thank you James for noticing that mention; most others didn't seem to. I will redouble my efforts to contact Matt Ridley. Interestingly, he gave the study he was reviewing high marks].

Also some strong circumstantial evidence, of which I'll give one or two examples another time. But this post is already long enough, and has made its point......
 
Last edited:
Tim Allwood said:
but is a 'chill' the same as a 'cold'

answer NO

problem solved

Wittgenstein taught me that one


Hi Tim,

I shall have to bow to your knowledge of Wittgenstein [who he? Ed], but it doesn't solve the problem, as I have seen "experts" denounce the theory for both. I'm happy, though, to withdraw the chill part, and leave it as cold, and my point still stands.
 
a chill doe not CAUSE a cold

it merely activates the cold virus

very different to saying chills cause colds not viruses - the scientists are therefore wrong.

apologies for the short posts but i don't like rambling - points can be made succinctly
 
Tim Allwood said:
a chill doe not CAUSE a cold

it merely activates the cold virus

very different to saying chills cause colds not viruses - the scientists are therefore wrong.

apologies for the short posts but i don't like rambling - points can be made succinctly


"the scientists are therefore wrong."

Yep, that was precisely my point. And if all those scientists and experts are wrong about that, maybe the scientists and experts are wrong about Magpies.

You still haven't told me [and I am unlikely to be alone in not knowing, I fairly confidentally predict!] who Wittgenstein is/was?
 
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