KnockerNorton
Well-known member
Define "disturbed", define "near", my good man.
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Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter The Raptor
- Start date
Define "disturbed", define "near", my good man.
try www.m-w.com...
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
marsupials and placental mammals are separated by much more, but go and have a look at how they occupy the same niches in Australia vs Europe. Convergent evolution as a response to the same habitat.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
I can't find the legal or ontihological definitions in there.
There is no legal definition for these words. The courts depend on a dictionary for cases where no legal definition exists - didn't you know that? Pretty basic my learned friend, I'm wondering if you have any legal training at all!
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
Nope, none. Although i could not be expected to know that there was no legal definition for "disturbance" in the Irish courts!
So, seeing as you appear to be fluent in Legalese Hibernia, if I were to walk around and use playback on a GSW in May, and it happened to be x distance from a nest with eggs, and a case were brought against me, how would it be defined (and proven?) that I had disturbed the bird and how would it be defined that i was 'near' the nest? because these are absolute things, and the dictionary definition is arbitrary. How would a poor simple tourist defend oneself against the oppressive might of the Irish legal system?
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It would be better if i did not tell you: actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. Your defence would be that you didn't know what you were doing - based on what i've seen I think the judge would fint that credible...
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KnockerNorton
Well-known member
you mean you don't know that either?!
You disappoint me, breffni, but I'm going to keep asking you questions on this thread until you answer at least one of them. This is like conducting a debate with an eel made of soap in a bucket of lubricating oil.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
ooh, honestly?! Right, can we start with post 421 and work forwards please. the questions are the sentences with a '?' after them
I'll be back on monday...loadsa time.
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Does anybody (other than my learned friend) know if this is enforced in the UK?
"In England, Scotland and Wales, it is a criminal offence to disturb, intentionally or recklessly, at or near the nest, a species listed on Schedule 1 of the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981. Disturbance could include playback of songs and calls. The courts can impose fines of up to £5,000 and/or a prison sentence of up to six months for each offence." cf RSPB.
"In England, Scotland and Wales, it is a criminal offence to disturb, intentionally or recklessly, at or near the nest, a species listed on Schedule 1 of the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981. Disturbance could include playback of songs and calls. The courts can impose fines of up to £5,000 and/or a prison sentence of up to six months for each offence." cf RSPB.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
can i answer anyway? (nevermind, i will anyway). yes, that law is enforced, as Schedule 1 are the really rare birds (osprey etc), that require special protection from eggers and the like. So that is the law that is used to prosecute someone who is caught half way down a cliff next to a peregrine nest. Although I don't know if the playback element has ever been used, at least in isolation. It would be rather difficult to prove or show intent (which seems to be a difference with irish law, as that burden of proof is not on the prosecution).
But what has UK law got to do with the matter afoot? Our 'peckers are not on Schedule 1 so the law does not apply to them.
In ireland it is an offence to distrub a breeding bird duting the closed season. This includes the use of playback. Playback works by tricking the territory holder into thinking that another male has come into its territory. The resident bird goes to investigate. This in itself constitutes disturbance. The disturbance may be such that the bird concludes that there is anotehr male and decide not to breed. Could the moderators of birdforum explain to KN that he is adovating an offence against the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.
Any more?
Any more?
Here is a list of the schedule 1 birds http://www.jncc.gov.uk/PDF/waca1981_schedule1.pdf
We are talking about potentially breeding peckers in NI and Ireland - if they are breeding they certainly come under the heading of rare breeding birds.
Clive Watson
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit ampheta
There used to be (Green, Great Spotted, Lesser Spotted, Middle Spotted and Black) but then the disturbance from playback became so bad that they were all driven to extinction.
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
Not good enough, M'lud. I fear you're mistaken in law and badly informed on avian ecology.
1. please post the link to the wording in the law (which is online) which states what you have just typed, re disturbing breeding birds in the 'closed season' (see 2), and what constitutes disturbance.
2. how can a woodpecker have a 'closed season', and where does the law refer to this phenomenon for non-game species? What constitutes an open season for a woodpecker, I wonder?
3. please post evidence (a scientific paper, if you'd be so kind - use Google Scholar if you like) that demonstrates that playback has resulted in a bird deciding not to breed. Ever. Anywhere. You wont, because if a bird would decide not to breed because it had heard another male in a territory, then no bird would ever breed except in a vacuum. And my own research would be somewhat thin, seeing as I use playback almost everyday, yet every pair of my target woodland species still manage to nest every year.
As there is no such thing as a closed season for a woodpecker, and seeing as birds seem quite able to fend off brief appearances of incurring males (see numerous papers on territoriality in chickadees, or Morley's 1950s papers on Marsh Tits), I am confident that my QC would easily see off a prosecution by the Irish Govt, the BirdForum Moderators, yourself, or anyone else. Furthermore, i would stand on the steps of your highest seat of legal jurisdiction and heartily bellow to the good men of women of the island of ireland to get over to Brittas in March with an Mp3 player, and settle this piffle.
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KnockerNorton
Well-known member
them and the snakes, due to the poor quality playback generating a background hiss.
QUOTE=breffni;1260269]In irish law its generally understood to be the period from 1st march to 31st august when it is an offence to cut hedgerows etc or do stuff that might interfere with breeding birds. In hunting it means the period in which you can't shoot a given species. Eg this year in ireland shooting curlew was prohibited (or "closed") in all months but November.[/QUOTE]
Look at section 40(1) of the wildlife act: "40.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person to cut, grub, burn or otherwise destroy, during the period beginning on the 15th day of April and ending on the 31st day of August in any year, any vegetation growing on any land not then cultivated or in course of cultivation for agriculture or forestry"
If memory serves me correctly the date of the start has been amended either by statutory instrument or by ministerial order so that it is now 1st March - in irish law this is generally referred to as the "closed season".
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