Zeiss below Terra? (3 Viewers)

[Troubador]

Some folks were a little startled when Zeiss brought out the Terra EDs at the $400/450 - £299/339 price point.

But now most of us have got used to the idea of a 'budget-concious' Zeiss, what would you think about one below Terra?

BTW I have not heard anything from Zeiss on this, but we are promised more new product revelations this year so who knows?

If Zeiss was to pitch in at around $200 - 250 they would find themselves head-to-head against:

Bushnell Legend Ultra HD, Minox BV II BR, Opticron Discovery, Celestron Trailseeker, Vortex Diamondback and probably a zillion Nikons.

Clearly plenty of companies think there is good business down there and no doubt all of them hope that buyers of these bins will be brand loyal in later years and trade up to more expensive models.

What do you think?

My own view is that given we have Terra it is hard to think of a convincing argument of not having something below Terra.

Lee

 

[NDhunter]

Lee:

I predict the Terra will be all Zeiss will want in the lower price range,
at least for now.
The Terra is very new under 1 year, so other sizes of the Terra would be
the next step, I'm thinking.

I like the idea of the Terra, and it is a good value.

Jerry

 

[perterra]

I dont think it would be a good idea, it opens the door to comparing their product to ever cheaper and ever cheaper lines and it would require giving up some autonomy of product made. I cant see them ever just ordering a container of binoculars and having their name put on them.


I think the only way to do it and not get drug into the mud would be a alternate brand name. They could do it under the Terra banner, Terra by Zeiss. There are some gems in the inexpensive lines of optics (the Leupold yosemite comes to mind), but I'm not sure what Zeiss would offer in a yosemite style optic that Leupold, Kowa and a hundred others dont currently offer.

Do I think they could do it, you bet, I'm just not sure they want to.

 

[FrankD]

I am with Jerry on this one. I doubt Zeiss will produce a binocular under the $350 US price point. The Terra really isn't that unprecedented from them since they did have the Diafun (around $300) and the Conquest 8x30 (originally right at $400).

My guess is that going to a lesser price point would either require cutting more corners or poorer quality control...basically the same two issues that any other company faces at the lower price points.

Come to think of it though, we are talking roof prism binoculars. I do believe they could produce a high quality porro model which could retail for around $200-$250. However, you know the ol' story about how porros have fallen from favor and would never sell.

 

[Troubador]

Lee:

I predict the Terra will be all Zeiss will want in the lower price range,
at least for now.
The Terra is very new under 1 year, so other sizes of the Terra would be
the next step, I'm thinking.

I like the idea of the Terra, and it is a good value.

Jerry

Jerry

My personal priority would be 32mm Terras just like you are suggesting ( I am ignoring HTs and FLs at the moment).

Lee

 

[Troubador]

I dont think it would be a good idea, it opens the door to comparing their product to ever cheaper and ever cheaper lines and it would require giving up some autonomy of product made. I cant see them ever just ordering a container of binoculars and having their name put on them.


I think the only way to do it and not get drug into the mud would be a alternate brand name. They could do it under the Terra banner, Terra by Zeiss. There are some gems in the inexpensive lines of optics (the Leupold yosemite comes to mind), but I'm not sure what Zeiss would offer in a yosemite style optic that Leupold, Kowa and a hundred others dont currently offer.

Do I think they could do it, you bet, I'm just not sure they want to.

PT

If other brands can produce 'gems' at this price level, I don't see why Zeiss couldn't too. As to what Zeiss could offer that would be different, it could be several things including a wider FOV, a bit closer focus or just the Zeiss name itself.

Your arguments against the idea are all reasonable but in a sense Zeiss has answered those sorts of doubts already just be introducing Terra.

As to whether they would want to do it at all, I don't know either.

Lee

 

[Troubador]

I am with Jerry on this one. I doubt Zeiss will produce a binocular under the $350 US price point. The Terra really isn't that unprecedented from them since they did have the Diafun (around $300) and the Conquest 8x30 (originally right at $400).

My guess is that going to a lesser price point would either require cutting more corners or poorer quality control...basically the same two issues that any other company faces at the lower price points.

Come to think of it though, we are talking roof prism binoculars. I do believe they could produce a high quality porro model which could retail for around $200-$250. However, you know the ol' story about how porros have fallen from favor and would never sell.

Frank

You could well be right. But as you point out, Zeiss have already visited the $300 price point already so Terra isn't breaking into an unknown segment for them.

Whether Zeiss has any ambitions below Terra remains to be seen, but its hard to think of any new reasons, other than have been levelled at Terra already that would convincingly argue against something at a lower price point. Although I suppose a lower priced model might scavenge some sales that might otherwise have gone to Terra.

Lee

 

[perterra]

PT

If other brands can produce 'gems' at this price level, I don't see why Zeiss couldn't too. As to what Zeiss could offer that would be different, it could be several things including a wider FOV, a bit closer focus or just the Zeiss name itself.

Your arguments against the idea are all reasonable but in a sense Zeiss has answered those sorts of doubts already just be introducing Terra.

As to whether they would want to do it at all, I don't know either.

Lee

I think there would be less tendency to overlook some of the issues that accompany those gems with a Zeiss though.

Our only difference is the price point, which is kind of what Jan has been saying, his price point is just $1,000 higher than either of us.

I think they are about as low as you will see them (+/- $35 or so)

If you are Zeiss who is your competition now?

If you introduce a $75 binocular who would your competition be? Do you really want to compete with Bushnell, Simmons and Tasco. Look at how many were panning Zeiss less than perfect offerings in the past. From what I have read it seems Zeiss reputation took a hit with some of their offerings, so imagine the hit if they put 5,000 binoculars on the market that were comparable to Bushnell Legend with all the diopter rings breaking?

The only way to do it is to buy from who your competing with. You lose your ability to control your cost when you farm out 100%. I think they could do it, I just dont know why they would.

 

[Troubador]

I think there would be less tendency to overlook some of the issues that accompany those gems with a Zeiss though.

Our only difference is the price point, which is kind of what Jan has been saying, his price point is just $1,000 higher than either of us.

I think they are about as low as you will see them (+/- $35 or so)

If you are Zeiss who is your competition now?

If you introduce a $75 binocular who would your competition be? Do you really want to compete with Bushnell, Simmons and Tasco. Look at how many were panning Zeiss less than perfect offerings in the past. From what I have read it seems Zeiss reputation took a hit with some of their offerings, so imagine the hit if they put 5,000 binoculars on the market that were comparable to Bushnell Legend with all the diopter rings breaking?

The only way to do it is to buy from who your competing with. You lose your ability to control your cost when you farm out 100%. I think they could do it, I just dont know why they would.

All good points PT although I did suggest a price point of $200 - 250 rather than $75.

And as to who they would compete with at that level, I also suggested that in my OP.

As to how they would manufacture it then it would have to be the same as Terra ED: produced to Zeiss specs and quality assurance in China.

As to why they would do it: to capture customers who will trade up to more expensive bins in a couple of years, to have more blue-badged bins out there with satisfied customers saying 'I bought a Zeiss and they are really neat' etc etc.

I am playing devil's advocate here PT. I am not saying Zeiss should do this, but that I can't see a convincing new argument against not doing it.

Lee

 

[perterra]

All good points PT although I did suggest a price point of $200 - 250 rather than $75.

And as to who they would compete with at that level, I also suggested that in my OP.

As to how they would manufacture it then it would have to be the same as Terra ED: produced to Zeiss specs and quality assurance in China.

As to why they would do it: to capture customers who will trade up to more expensive bins in a couple of years, to have more blue-badged bins out there with satisfied customers saying 'I bought a Zeiss and they are really neat' etc etc.

I am playing devil's advocate here PT. I am not saying Zeiss should do this, but that I can't see a convincing new argument against not doing it.

Lee

I understand, but didnt make it clear. Why stop at $200, why not stop at $75.

I think Zeiss sees a shift in the market and are reacting. If the market trends lower, then it wouldnt surprise me to see a $200 Zeiss. But you have to be very careful to not cheapen the brand when you cheapen the product. Kind of like when Bausch & Lomb decided the products Bushnell was offering with the B&L name were cheapening the B&L brand. Look at the past optics companies that decided to cover the market from cheap to top end.

Nikon, they took a pretty good hit when the market changed. Do they even own a mfg facility in japan for binoculars any longer?

Leupold, havent had anything like the Gold Ring in years

Bushnell Elites, sure arent what they used to be.

Over all I think the Zeiss name is too valuable to gamble on too many cheap products, sport optics are after all just a drop in the bucket to the Zeiss empire.

I know Jan thinks Zeiss and Swaro are locked in hand to hand combat, but I dont think it's entirely true. I think Zeiss is looking past Swaro and to where it thinks the market will be down the road. There is a lot of danger in not recognizing the threats of walmart style competitors, but there is just as much danger in reacting with out having a clear vision of what your target is.

These are all just musings, I have no idea the real liabilities involved, just assuming things with no facts.

 

[Torview]

I like the sound of an entry Zeiss porro, 7x35 70 deg afov ?

 

[Troubador]

I understand, but didnt make it clear. Why stop at $200, why not stop at $75.

I think Zeiss sees a shift in the market and are reacting. If the market trends lower, then it wouldnt surprise me to see a $200 Zeiss. But you have to be very careful to not cheapen the brand when you cheapen the product. Kind of like when Bausch & Lomb decided the products Bushnell was offering with the B&L name were cheapening the B&L brand. Look at the past optics companies that decided to cover the market from cheap to top end.

Nikon, they took a pretty good hit when the market changed. Do they even own a mfg facility in japan for binoculars any longer?

Leupold, havent had anything like the Gold Ring in years

Bushnell Elites, sure arent what they used to be.

Over all I think the Zeiss name is too valuable to gamble on too many cheap products, sport optics are after all just a drop in the bucket to the Zeiss empire.

I know Jan thinks Zeiss and Swaro are locked in hand to hand combat, but I dont think it's entirely true. I think Zeiss is looking past Swaro and to where it thinks the market will be down the road. There is a lot of danger in not recognizing the threats of walmart style competitors, but there is just as much danger in reacting with out having a clear vision of what your target is.

These are all just musings, I have no idea the real liabilities involved, just assuming things with no facts.

OK PT

I understand and that is a very coherent and reasoned comment on the idea.

Lee

 

[Troubador]

I like the sound of an entry Zeiss porro, 7x35 70 deg afov ?

Now you are just being mischievous and have clearly spent too much time wading about in the floods down in your neck of the woods.

Since Zeiss have given up on 7x roofs its probably a bit fanciful to wish for a 7x porro.

Mind you, the 70 deg afov would be nice in an 8x32 roof, but not at the price level we are talking about here.

Lee

 

[FrankD]

I like the sound of an entry Zeiss porro, 7x35 70 deg afov ?

Amen Brother!

Lets call it the Zeiss Thcibah.

 

[Troubador]

Lets call it the Zeiss Thcibah.

Frank, is this a Pennsylvania thing..............:eek!:

Lee

 

[mooreorless]

Zeiss Thcibah you could always just smoke it if it didn't give good views.

 

[cycleguy]

Lee,

This just sounds like a bad idea. Plenty of junk at the lower price point, why would Zeiss want to produce junk and compete with junk bins? Nikon really isn't known for their higher end binoculars, mostly known for monarchs and lesser quality bins. Zeiss is known for their higher end product.

My .02

CG

 

[Binoseeker]

funny...read Thcibah backwards...

 

[Torview]

I`m not convinced that offering cheaper models lessens the brands status, Mercedes offer a 20k A class front drive hatch, does this diminish in any way the lure of an S class or Maybach ?

 

[jan van daalen]

Lee,

This just sounds like a bad idea. Plenty of junk at the lower price point, why would Zeiss want to produce junk and compete with junk bins? Nikon really isn't known for their higher end binoculars, mostly known for monarchs and lesser quality bins. Zeiss is known for their higher end product.

My .02

CG

Nikon binoculars sales profits from Nikons A status in camera's.
Terra sales profits from the A status Zeiss still has.
So, will there be a lower model in the near future? Absolutely!!
Am I pleased? :C:C

Jan