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UK - Northumberland - Marsh/willow tit? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Derek Polley
- Start date
phil baber
Clipped Wing
Derek,
It's a Marsh Tit.
Glossy black cap.
Pale cutting edge to bill.
Buff extending onto rear of white cheeks.
Abscence of any pale area on the retrices.
To name a few pointers,,,
It's a blurry photo, but the sheen on the cap is marked and a good feature on Marsh.
It's a Marsh Tit.
Glossy black cap.
Pale cutting edge to bill.
Buff extending onto rear of white cheeks.
Abscence of any pale area on the retrices.
To name a few pointers,,,
It's a blurry photo, but the sheen on the cap is marked and a good feature on Marsh.
spiritwalker
Member
Yes i will go with marsh tit, also they have different size beaks, but pic to shaky to tell!
Vipers
Brunswick Birder
I don't think you will ever get a definite id from this photo, but zooming my browser in 400% I can see that the bill is not clear enough to make out any id features. The glossy cap could be an effect caused by the blurring, but what is clearly visible is a pale panel on the wing, a pro Willow Tit feature. But like I said not enough to go on to nail it. Sorry Derek!
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martin kitching
Obsessed seawatcher
Derek
Marsh/Willow must be one of the most frequent ID queries on BF, even with sharp, clear images
With the caveat that the image isn't really of high enough quality to be absolutely certain, I would suggest that Willow Tit cannot be ruled out;
A buffish suffusion towards the nape does not rule out Willow - distinctly two-toned cheeks would, but this bird doesn't show the obvious demarcation of a Marsh Tit (unless that's hidden behind the wire...).
Absence/presence of a pale cutting edge is not the feature to look for on the bill (despite many posts on BF misinterpreting the criteria posted by Poecile/Parus/KnockerNorton). Marsh Tit has a distinct pale spot near the base of the upper mandible. Willow can show a pale cutting edge, it's a trick of the light, but Marsh has a pale spot that stands proud from the cutting edge. On the sharpest images I've seen posted on BF it's possible to identify Marsh Tits using that feature alone on the thumbnail images. On your image there is a suggestion of this spot, although the pale area on the bill seems to start at the base of the lower mandible and extends diagonally forward to the top of the upper mandible.
Other criteria are unreliable (and were shown to be so over a decade ago; unfortunately field guides, and birders, continue to promote these unreliable features).
(BTW Thornley Woods is not in Northumberland)
cheers
martin
Marsh/Willow must be one of the most frequent ID queries on BF, even with sharp, clear images
With the caveat that the image isn't really of high enough quality to be absolutely certain, I would suggest that Willow Tit cannot be ruled out;
A buffish suffusion towards the nape does not rule out Willow - distinctly two-toned cheeks would, but this bird doesn't show the obvious demarcation of a Marsh Tit (unless that's hidden behind the wire...).
Absence/presence of a pale cutting edge is not the feature to look for on the bill (despite many posts on BF misinterpreting the criteria posted by Poecile/Parus/KnockerNorton). Marsh Tit has a distinct pale spot near the base of the upper mandible. Willow can show a pale cutting edge, it's a trick of the light, but Marsh has a pale spot that stands proud from the cutting edge. On the sharpest images I've seen posted on BF it's possible to identify Marsh Tits using that feature alone on the thumbnail images. On your image there is a suggestion of this spot, although the pale area on the bill seems to start at the base of the lower mandible and extends diagonally forward to the top of the upper mandible.
Other criteria are unreliable (and were shown to be so over a decade ago; unfortunately field guides, and birders, continue to promote these unreliable features).
(BTW Thornley Woods is not in Northumberland)
cheers
martin
marklhawkes
Well-known member
Good summary by Martin... as he says, forget features like colour/tone of cap, and pale/lack of pale in wing panel. Concentrate on bill features and call.
StevieEvans
Well-known member
50/50
Thornley Woods, like several other locations in Co.Durham, does hold both species...
Thornley Woods, like several other locations in Co.Durham, does hold both species...
phil baber
Clipped Wing
I guess the photo is rather too blurry.
I don't however consider one should ditch all the ID features for both birds so cavalierly! Leaving us with only two!
Study in the field here and all over Europe has shown these combination ID features to be of great help. The call is a clincher, but they don't always call!!!! And who can honestly say they always get a clear shot of the bill on such a small hyperactive bird??? Please don't narrow the ID down to just 2features. This is gonna confuse a lot of people new to this game, and negates study of plumage detail in the separation of these two birds; in combination with bare part and voice specifics.
I draw your attention to Keith Vinicombe's comparisons in the MacMillan Guide to Bird Identification. A good place to start.
Also it has not been mentioned that, although Willow Tits DO visit bird feeders, they are less likely to do so than Marsh.
Happy birding!
I don't however consider one should ditch all the ID features for both birds so cavalierly! Leaving us with only two!
Study in the field here and all over Europe has shown these combination ID features to be of great help. The call is a clincher, but they don't always call!!!! And who can honestly say they always get a clear shot of the bill on such a small hyperactive bird??? Please don't narrow the ID down to just 2features. This is gonna confuse a lot of people new to this game, and negates study of plumage detail in the separation of these two birds; in combination with bare part and voice specifics.
I draw your attention to Keith Vinicombe's comparisons in the MacMillan Guide to Bird Identification. A good place to start.
Also it has not been mentioned that, although Willow Tits DO visit bird feeders, they are less likely to do so than Marsh.
Happy birding!
rockfowl
Mark Andrews
Sadly the 'Master' at this KnockerNorton, formerly Poecile, formerly Parus and all that appears to be no longer with us, but I think in this case even he would decline a positive id
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=107725
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=107725
marklhawkes
Well-known member
Agreed, Vinicombe's comparison is still very reliable. However, calls can be mis-leading, with some apparently possible from either species (per Richard Broughton, the author of the below paper).
Bill details can be found here http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigration/24_2/broughton1.pdf
Bill details can be found here http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigration/24_2/broughton1.pdf
Doctor Gadwall
Doctor Gadwall
Derek
Personally I cannot see anything that rules out Willow Tit in the photograph .... but ....
perhaps more importantly Marsh Tit is probably now extinct in Gateshead's Derwent valley woods. Its several years since one was seen, but a minimum of 5 Willow Tits are coming to the feeding station at Thornley at the moment so I think you are pretty well safe saying it is this species.
Interested in whats about in Gateshead - see www.gatesheadbirders.co.uk
Personally I cannot see anything that rules out Willow Tit in the photograph .... but ....
perhaps more importantly Marsh Tit is probably now extinct in Gateshead's Derwent valley woods. Its several years since one was seen, but a minimum of 5 Willow Tits are coming to the feeding station at Thornley at the moment so I think you are pretty well safe saying it is this species.
Interested in whats about in Gateshead - see www.gatesheadbirders.co.uk
martin kitching
Obsessed seawatcher
seggs
Alrite!
Support you on that one , ive never seen Marsh tit around Thornley over the last 5 years either.
Jos Stratford
Eastern Exile
Although I'm not in the UK, I get both species at my feeders. The frequency appears to reflect simply the relative abundance of the two species in the immediate area of the feeding stations, rather than an increased likelyhood by individuals of either species.
In my exampes, Marsh Tits breed near my feeding stations and are common year-round on the feeders. Willow Tits on the other hand do not actually breed in the immediate surroundings, but regularly move in during winter from surrounding areas, and then they also occur on the feeders.
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