Listing - suggestions for a way forward (1 Viewer)

[Jos Stratford]

Hi Mike,

Just a minor question regarding BUBO, the listing of places and dates is presumably to avoid mistakes and other discrepancies, but is there any way to just enter 'in the 1980s' - how do birders who have misplaced notebooks from two or three decades ago, or are lazy to spend three weeks going through such notebooks, enter dates?

I have no idea what my Western Pal list might be, but gave up trying to find out and deleted before even getting through the ducks simply because I can not remember the exact date that I saw Blue-winged Teal, etc, etc.

 

[wolfbirder]

What a shame that what was an excellent original post has descended into such personal diatribe.

I think BUBO and the people who run it are exactly what i want, well-balanced, pleasant, non-sniping birders who are trying to maximise everyone's personal enjoyment regards listing.

I cannot see how any system can work perfectly for everyone though - one man's own list addition regards a BBRC-determined 'unproven' bird is another man's fraudulent claim or example of cheating. But as many have pointed out, you can only cheat if you are trying to beat someone else (though i accept you may point you are cheating yourself), and a claim of a sighting IMO is only fraudulent if that act is 'intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual'. Again this is subjective, but again in my opinion it may be worth having some sort of indicator highlighting that person wishes to be non-competitive. Perhaps those individuals could then appear on the same lists but that indicator would show. It is very very difficult, and which ever alternative you look at, you can see a downside too.

Someone said that most top listers do not yet use BUBO - in my opinion long may that continue based on the sniping competitive nature of some of them, maybe that's what makes BUBO the best listing site available, and with its creative flair and basic common sense and good customer care, I can only see it going from strength to strength!

Maybe the serious top listers could simply run their own "premier league" of birding listing site - as with it's football counterpart devoid of morality & win at all cost mentality.

I wonder how many people still use logbooks? I accept I do not take notebooks with me, but I write up every birding trip in the Birdwatcher's Logbook (currently on book eleven since 1998 when I started birding). I write up field characteristics and observations of birds I have made a mental note of, at the end of the day. I cannot draw, but by writing things up (anything about a birds plumage or behaviour) I learn a lot and its a good way of jogging the memory about long gone days out including funny mishaps such as leaving books on top of the car and driving off, to being desperate to use the loo on a twitch, to falling aslepp standing up at a twitch due to tiredness. My most embarrassing moment was being in a line of 15 birders at Spurn Point looking for a Rustic Bunting that I dipped ! I was intensely looking through low vegetation at a Little Bunting (which I didnt need), at exactly the same time the other 14 were looking the other way at the Rustic that had simultaneously emerged behind me. As you do, people were saying lovely bird, chuntering as you do quietly. What I hadnt realised was that whilst I was commenting on the Little Bunting, the others were commenting on the Rustic! Only when both birds retreated into vegetation and binoculars were put down did I realise with immense embarrassment, that we had been looking at different birds. Prize ***** I felt I can tell you!

 

[mikeprince]

Just a minor question regarding BUBO, the listing of places and dates is presumably to avoid mistakes and other discrepancies, but is there any way to just enter 'in the 1980s' - how do birders who have misplaced notebooks from two or three decades ago, or are lazy to spend three weeks going through such notebooks, enter dates?

Hi Jos

That's right, and also for general interest - it can be pretty boring browsing if you just have a list of species, but the dates and locations, plus the comments (e.g. from the birder who saw White-winged Black Tern in the nude!) make it much more fun. Anyway you can always enter an approximate date and location, preferably with a comment to say something like "Can't remember exact date". We only make dates and locations mandatory for species that the authority considers rarities, so BB rarities on a BOU list for example. Other species can just be ticked, and many authorities don't indicate rarity status anyway; e.g. world lists using Clements or IOC are easier to enter.

 

[Lee Evans]

I find myself agreeing with many of the sensible posts written more recently and in general, the majority of Life Lists can be taken at face value and there is no reason to doubt them. It is only the odd bird of contention that we are dealing with.

I would also like to thank Mike and Andy for their comments and although we have had minor differences over the years, they are more than welcome to continue to use the UK and Ireland 400 Club Definitive List for their members to use if they wish.

I would just like to provide one example of where Life Listing can have its problems and where I come in. For many years, I established winter feeding stations for Lady Amherst's Pheasants in Beds and Bucks and took many hundreds of birders on tours to see them. I knew the whereabouts of all of the Lady A's. Eventually, through old age and some deliberate shooting, they all died out and became extinct. Just before the last adult male disappeared, it was suddenly joined by a hybrid Lady A x Golden Pheasant - this latter bird on a brief view appearing incredibly similar to a pure male Lady A. This bird survived at Charle and Buttermilk Wood for three years after the demise of the pure population but was repeatedly ticked off by visiting birders and appeared on many Life Lists across the land. Likewise, the Halkyn population of Lady A's were never self-supporting - they were artificially kept and supported by the lady that owned the huge estate mansion there and once she died, the Lady A population subsequently suffered and quickly died out. This was why this population was never allowed for club listing purposes.

 

[Andy Musgrove]

Hi Lee

Thanks for yours. I agree that you've taken a lot of stick recently and whilst you obviously recognise that some of this is a little self-inflicted, there's obviously no call for abusive calls - well out of order. A bit of harmless mickey-taking is one thing, but it can go too far.

In terms of handing over the reins of the twitching scene to us and to BUBO, hmm! The words poisoned and chalice spring to mind. As most folk will realise, we have no desire to impose any sort of new world order! We're obviously happy for people to use BUBO, and very much welcome comments on potential developments we can continue to make. So if this is what you mean by handing over the reins, then yes we're happy to administer lists, using the format we've already adopted. However, we have no desire (nor time nor inclination nor understanding-enough spouses!) to a) adjudicate who has seen what, or b) police twitches! (I've only been to one this year anyway!)

As others have said, just make sure you keep enjoying your birding. Perhaps you might have time to do some BTO surveys...! You'll be pleased to hear I was scribbling in my notebook (I never go anywhere without it) in the field this morning, if only to record my Whitlingham WeBS count (2 Red-crested Pochards the dubious highlight, probably released birds from Flixton but who knows?)


[On a wider matter then, I'd like to draw attention again to all readers to the original purpose of this thread - see first message if forgotten. Still interested in people's thoughts on potential ways to solve any of the outstanding "problems" inherent in listing systems at present.]

Cheers

Andy

 

[wolfbirder]

I would simply switch your phones off at night or change your number Lee, if it affects you that profoundly.

By the way, by supporting BUBO I am not in any way demeaning UK400. Although i respect BOU list (as everyone does) I also find the UK400 list closer to my thinking, and I find the reports and articles extremely informative. Long may that continue. If the nastiness and bitterness stems from the policing aspect then thats a different matter, but it does not demean the quality of the work and birding knowledge and information to be found. Amongst all the current stuff going on, you should remember that.